Do you believe in the Trinity?

For Sam Allberry, confessing that you believe in the Trinity is one thing, actually acting like it’s true is another.

Sam argues in his provocatively titled post, The Rise of Islamic Christianity, that it’s possible to hold to a stated belief in the Trinity, yet functionally act as if we are Unitarians. Unless we actively seek to involve Trinitarian thinking into our lives and community we’ll find ourselves in two predicaments:

1. Our view of church will become functional and not relational.
We will only meet to “do” things, and will not really see the point of meeting for merely social reasons. Our gatherings will become a matter of utility and not family….The minister will see his congregation as ‘clients’; his ministry as one of shunting people through the right programs. He will see himself as a professional ‘Bible teacher’. His people will feel handled rather than loved. The church will be the place to grow for a while in understanding, or at least in Bible knowledge, but will not be the place to find authentic Christian community.

2. Our aim for church will be uniformity and not diversity.
The Trinity shows us a God who is unity in diversity rather than unity in sameness. The Father, Son and Spirit are not interchangeable. They share an ontological unity, but function differently within the purposes of God. This lies behind Paul’s teaching on the variety of gifts found in the church in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6.

He continues to argue that acting as Unitarians leads to conformity of the worst kind. We won’t value the diverse gifts of the kingdom. We won’t even be able to act as the body of Christ because instead of celebrating the cornucopia of spiritual gifts, we’ll uphold one gift as the only true one.

In my mind, Allberry’s key point is that our belief in the Trinity is both an intellectual and a spiritual matter.

Some struggle with the intellectual aspect of the Trinity, it might never make philosophical sense, but they can readily trust in it by faith. For others, they have no problem intellectually believing it, it’s the faith part they have a hard time with. Either way, it should be patently clear to anyone who has tried to discuss the Trinity that it’s not an easy concept to grasp, but—as Allberry points out—it has profound effects on everything to do with our faith: how we read the Bible, how we interact with God, how we pray, how we live in community, etc.

Do you agree with Allberry? Have you seen how your beliefs (or other’s beliefs) about the Trinity effect interactions with other people? Can a nominal belief in the Trinity really lead to a dismantling of Christian community?

35 Responses to “Do you believe in the Trinity?”

  • I think it’s often the other way around. In living in community, with both the homogeneous and diverse, we “can” better understand the Trinity. When the community creates unity, it is both the salt and pepper that energizes the community and makes it worthwhile. The Trinity is a community of three, both homogeneous and diverse AT THE SAME TIME. What a wonderful example to us who have been created in the immage and likeness of God, the Trinity.

  • Rich says:

    I have read the whole Bible , and nowhere does it say God is three persons. I know a lot of people believe that to be true, but I am from Missouri, you have to show me. Until then I conclude that is just someone’s idea. No way is God a trinity. Check it out yourself.

    • Amanda says:

      It states God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit(Ghost) which is one in three which is what makes up the trinity

  • Brian says:

    There is only 1 God; there never has been nor will there ever be more than 1. All throughout the old testament God stated the fact that there is none other beside Him and that He alone made the worlds and He also said there would never be another Savior other than Himself. Deut. 6:4 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. When Isaiah prophesied about the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ), he said His name shall be called Wonderful, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace….. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy, Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, believed on in the world, received up into glory. That word manifest means to show oneself and to be plainly recognized. Jesus told Phillip, When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father. Jesus said in John 10:30, I and my Father are one. James 2:19 says Thou believest that there is one God? thou doest well; the devils also believe and tremble. There are so many more scriptures which proclaim the Oneness of God; I hope this helps someone.

    • sam says:

      It doesn’t help tell me who was he praying to in the garden, and tell me why he prayed to the father that he would send the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. and tell me why it says let us make man in our image, in the KJV which is the authorized version of the bible.

  • Adam says:

    Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”

  • Oscar says:

    Hello’ I would like to say that I have enjoyed the dialogue and am more inclined on what brian has to say due to the word trinity just being a word used to discribe God in three different persons,by the way has anyone looked up the word(distinct)meaning something can not be the same as the other thing. what about the wording being used even though we dont see it used like that in the bible (God the Son )we do see the wording the man Christ Jesus.

    Hey thanks for allowing me this time, God Bless

  • Southern Hoosier says:

    I do not believe in the Trinity. I believe in God the Father and God the Son.
    Matthew 1:20 ….. because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
    If you believe in the Trinity and that the Holy Spirit is a separate being, then you believe that Christ is not the Son of God, but the Son of the Holy Spirit.

    • Chris says:

      Hmm, that’s a tricky one. I’m not a theologian, but it would seem to follow that if you think that the Godhead contains all three personas, then even if Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, he would still be born of God. It sounds like you have a problem with the Holy Spirit being considered God.

      Care to explain your position a bit more? I might not be understanding you completely.

      Anyone else care to chime in?

  • Fred says:

    First, the ideas of the trinity were not created overnight! Study the historical reasons for why we have arrived at this doctrine and you might appreciate the complexity of the issue (which no one in the thread has really touched upon… namely the reason why there were so many councils about the God-hood of Jesus and the unity of the three persons of God).

    Second, the critical point of the trinity is that the three persons are the same substance but different persons within the unity of being, ‘Yahweh’. This is critical because unless Jesus was the same substance (what they referred to as homoousios) as the Father and Spirit, then he would not have the saving power at the cross and subsequent glorification to redeem, sanctify, and glorify us. So, the critical point of the trinity is not simply does the word ‘trinity’ exist in the Bible, or can we use wordplays to get this whole ‘God’ thing down… Rather, the problem is salvific and the very nature of the redemption. The church fathers were struggling with how the scriptures defined Jesus alongside the very nature of His work and the essence of His being both God and man.

    Third, when people say there is no trinity or that they do not believe in the Trinity, they must consider what they do believe in… ie. you must positively and negatively define what and who ‘God’ is, which leaves them with an immense problem: trying to positively describe something infinite in human language and terms. When we say the ‘trinity’ there is by definition a limited human inadequacy to describe the very nature of existence and being; however, it is the most Biblical term that positively describes the relationship between the three persons of the Godhead.

    Now, this is where all the non-trinitarians have issues: what about this problem or that problem.. (ie. Holy Spirit birthed Him or show me the ‘trinity’). When we start trying to define God based on all the exceptions and problems we are forgetting that issue is full comprehension of God (grasping all that God is…which is impossible) rather than the apprehension of who God is (as He has revealed to us positively through His own revelation). We don’t know the answer to some issues, however we do have the revelation of who God is in the scriptures and through this we apprehend the complexity of the trinity (through the various descriptions of the relationships… some quoted above).

    So, if you have qualms with the trinity and want someone to show it to you in scripture… you need to step back and think about this.. We are trying to describe infinity, the very nature of being and upon which everything exists and has essence… reality is pretty complicated (try studying nuclear physics) and it reflects a fraction of who God is. The word ‘trinity’ is simply a human attempt to amass the scriptural idea of God and His being as it relates to the Father, Son, and Spirit.

    My suggestion would be to study the early church councils and the reasons they reached some of their decisions. It will bring clarity and appreciation to the doctrine that we so easily take for granted.

  • Mark D. says:

    When asked by a scribe the greatest commandment, Jesus responded,
    (Mark 12:29&30) The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. This is quoting the Shema, found in Deut. 6:4.

    Jesus knew whom he was, and he knew he wasn’t God, in Matthew 19 he even clearly seperated and ended any possible of such a claim in Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    So why should we believe something Jesus clearly didn’t believe himself!

    • Chris says:

      I think Mark brings up a few good points. Any Church historians or Theologians who would care to respond?

      • Mark D. says:

        I understand the answer, Jesus was purely a Biblical monotheist.

        He understood that he was not God, he never claimed to be “God the Son” only the “Son of God”.

        The Bible in no way presents a trinity of God, even the favored Genesis 1 were there is a plural term used in both the Hebrew and in translation, we have to understand the Hebrew idioms and rules and realize that this is a such a huge moment, that the plural is used to signify the magnitude of importance this was to God. Isaiah 44:24, that says, Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” It was only God in the beginning, for “He alone spread out the earth”

        Jesus is God’s son whose existence began at the time of inception as God’s spirit moved over Mary. John 4:24, that says, “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” unlocks for us the identity of the Holy Spirit, it is not describing another 1/3 of God it is describing the only One True God.

        God is only One, not a 2 in 1 or 3 in 1.

        I worded the original blog as a question, to encourage Bible study, as good Bereans, to borrow a phrase from Paul.
        Mark D.

        • Chris says:

          @Mark thanks for giving us more of your thoughts!

          What about John 1 then? John seems to argue quite thoroughly that Jesus existed at the beginning along with God with his bodily existence beginning when Mary was impregnated.

          I think I know the answer to this based on your comment, but would you argue that Jesus was not God? If so, where does that leave Jesus?

          • Mark D. says:

            Well, That question goes back to taking words for what they say at face value.

            In John 1 the word ‘logos’ was translated to the word ‘word’.

            Amazingly, in every other instance where the word ‘logos’ is used in the Greek, it is translated as small letter “w”, the only instance is in John 1.

            The ‘logos’ is simply as the definition from Strong’s states, from G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

            Jesus Christ in John 1 is the “Divine Expression” of God. John 1 isn’t referring to anything other than the Divine Expression that had in mind from before the creation of this world, a plan of salvation for fallen mankind.

            Jesus Christ, was a man born of a woman, with divine attributes from his heavenly Father. These divine attributes are what gave him the ability to live a sinless life qualifying him to become our sacrificial passover lamb once and for all.

            I hope this helps, as a Biblical monotheist, I still shower honor and praise and all glory due to Jesus, for we are told in Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

            Mark D.

    • Alison G says:

      I think it’s interesting to note in the sited scripture that the ‘rich young ruler’ ask Jesus ‘what good thing must I do to obtain ETERNAL LIFE?’ Jesus responded immediately by asking a question related to himself…’Why are you asking ME about what is good? There is only One who is good.’ (Was Jesus implying that he was NOT good? or asking the man to consider why He CALLED Jesus good, when ONLY ONE IS GOOD?) He gave the man several things to do in order to ‘obtain eternal life'(basically a works salvation and giving up his entire life to follow JESUS V.18-21.) The man went away grieving because he was rich v. 22(implied – that he wouldn’t give up his worldly wealth.) After another statement from Jesus about how hard it was to enter the kingdom of God, his disciples then asked ‘Who then can be saved?’ And Jesus replied…’With people this is impossible,[implied ‘you can’t save yourself’ i.e. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23] but with God all things are possible.” v. 26.

      In John 5:39-40. Jesus says..’You search the scriptures (that would be the OLD TESTAMENT) because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.’ In John 6:40. The words of Jesus are..’For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Either the statements in John are true and Jesus is the answer to ‘how shall I obtain eternal life’ or they are false and none of the scriptures are valid.

      As to the question of the Trinity. If you attempt to explain it using ‘human’ reason or understanding – you will always fail because it is beyond all human understanding. The scriptures are plain. John 1:1 ‘In the beginning is the Word,(identified as Jesus in v. 14) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’ and John 1:18 ‘No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten GOD who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.’ This scripture CLEARLY identifies Jesus with God. It is either true or not true.

    • Richard K. says:

      In Matthew 19:16-17 Jesus was pointing to the oxymoron in the man’s title of Jesus. He was telling the man to either believe that he was God (and not call him a teacher) or believe him to be a man (then don’t call him good). Jesus was not refering commenting on how he saw himself, but rather letting the man know that he had to choose, he could not have it both ways.

  • Acts 2:38 says:

    if God were to be a trinity. Then you have three petsons of God. And these three persons are to be in one. Well then in genesis were it says let us make man in our image . Then the one God who is supposively a trinity is speaking to someone else. How can you say God is three in one. And then read a scripture where the word us is used. And then say see one person speaking to the other. What definition of one are yall using? I’m not bashing anyones beliefs. But if you believe in a trinity then you are straight up an idolotar. Jesus said you can’t have more than one master. Because you are gone to love one and hate the other. Well my trinitarian friend you have three. If all you got to do is accept Jesus in your life then the other two people of your trinity are being left out. Besides Jesus don’t need us to accept him. I’m doing all I can to get HIM to accept me. Notice how God is always letting us know he can do it all by himself. A trinity mind is pretty much saying God needs help. Wish I had more space. Thank you in Jesus name. Acts 2:38 is salvation

    • Chris says:

      @Acts 2:38 As Fred pointed out above: I think it helps to think of the Trinity as three distinct personas of the same substance. Together they are God, yet they still have separate functions.

      I’m probably being unclear. Hopefully someone else can respond to you.

      • Mark D. says:

        Chris & Fred,
        Based on Fred’s explanation of the trinity then verses such as,

        Romans 8:34, “Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died–more than that, who was raised–who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.”


        Ephesians 1:20-21, “that he (God=vs.17) worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

        If the trinity were true verses such as this would be pointless, if they were of the same substance, why would Jesus need to sit at the Father’s right hand?

        If they were of the same substance, why would the Father have had to raise Jesus from the dead, Jesus would have been able to raise himself.

        The discussion of the trinity becomes quite cylindrical at this point, chasing man made ideas and arguments rather than accepting simply the Word of God for what it says plainly in black and white.
        Mark D.

    • Richard K. says:

      We have one military, yet the Army, Navy (Marines included here), and Air Force each have separate functions. Each branch performs its mission without trying to do the job of another branch although each has the power to do the job itself. For instance, if an airstrike is needed, Navy pilots are just as capable as Air Force pilots, but since it is the Air Force’s job, they are the ones called upon. The Holy Trinity is much like this. Each part is the same God (each branch is part of the same military), but an infinant God occupies three different beings (since we are not infinite, we can only occupy one being). Each being has infinite power, but only does its job, and allows the other beings to do theirs. I hope this helps.

  • keith says:

    yeah,the trinity is a pagan teaching. after doing research if anyone still believes that they are in denial. but the bible makes it clear. col 1:15’16 “the firstborn” in order to be born you have to be created. mark 13:32 this wouldnt be the case if they were coequal making a godhead.john 14:28 “greater then i”. 1cor 11:3 clearly then,christ is not God,God is of superior rank to christ. 1 cor 15:27,28. matt 12:31,32 wouldnt this contradict the trinity doctrine,putting the holy sprit ahead of jesus? matt 26:39. also john 8:17,18 jesus spoke of himself as being an individual separate from the father…just to name a few.

  • Fred says:

    couple quick thoughts for everyone who still denies the relationship of the trinity…

    First, the Shema does not negate the concept of the Trinity, but amplifies the understanding of the “I-you-us” relationship within the Godhead. God is perfect in part because He self-sustains within Himself a relationship between persons, yet remains a single identity.

    Second, in reference to Jesus’ words about the relationship He had with His Father (when He often referred to His Father as greater or He submitted to His Father), He often took an obeisance stance with respect to the will of God which does not mean He was less than God. It is describing how He functions within the historical redemption of mankind alongside the roles of the Father and Spirit. We are dealing with the intricacies of the relationship within God Himself… don’t expect to make a perceived exception the general for the nature of Jesus. See the myriad of other scriptures where Jesus calls Himself “one with the Father” and “before Abraham was born, I AM” (clearly identifying Himself as YHWH, God of the OT). Or take Colossian 1:15-20 or Philippians 2.

    Third, one cannot take one scripture to the exclusion of the rest. It also helps to know the Greek words that underlie various parts and descriptions. The ‘firstborn’ is describing something that is also balanced with the idea in John 1:1… namely, the idea that Jesus, although a man, was both a part of our time and existence and yet existed apart from time in eternity; it is the miracle of the infinite interacting with the finite, the timeless in time itself.

    We are arguing about the exceptions and the attempts to describe infinity, not getting to the real argument… How could a mere man die to save us? Or even a superman? Only if Jesus was God could He do what has been done in scripture…unite us with God.

    • Mark D. says:

      Here is a paper a friend of mine gave at a theological conference this last spring giving the history of the concept of the trinity. Jesse is a very educated man, he holds several degrees from universities across this country and is finishing a doctoral thesis this year on yet another. I hope you enjoy it, it is a bit long but if you will follow it through to the end, you will understand the disdain that a few of the bloggers have had.

      [ Admin note: in lieu of reposting the whole article here, please follow this link in order to read a .pdf of the paper.]

      • Fred says:

        Frankly, I am surprised that his arguments have any weight for persuasion. He argues in the beginning that Anthanasias borrowed his ideas from Plato and the pagan ideas of trinities… however, it is a non-sequitor that if an idea is similar to another that it is the same or the origin of such an idea. Also, Greek thought was used to clarify the difficulties in scripture not redefine it. Acuff worms his way out of a solid argument by simply waving his hand at the similarities of thought in Athanasias and pagan mythologies then pronouncing them equally pagan. It is possible the idea of a trinity is employed elsewhere in creation and in pagan thinking, but it is a non-sequiter to assume this means Athanasias introduced it apart from a scriptural basis and argument or that it means the trinity is from pagan influence. Acuff might do better to deal with the specific arguments presented by Athanasias in the councils for why the trinitarian definition was originally introduced. There are a lot of missing parts and sequences in Acuff’s train of thought and argument.

        Further, he quotes Billy Graham? …why does he quote a mainstream evangelist and not a serious systematic theologian? Serious straw man! …and this was given at a theological conference? How does one begin to dissect the complex ideas of the trinity by starting with arguments and quotes from Billy Graham and the jumping conclusions like that from the early church fathers (aka Athanasias)?

        Sorry, but he really fails to address serious arguments from the other side at all… Educated or not, degrees or whatever, the article does not represent an accurate picture of the development of the trinity or subsequent arguments by historical and modern theologians. Maybe his other work is better, but this was simply terrible academic work and writing.

        I hope this is not the sort of work being relied upon to define the ideas of God from scripture! We need more scripture and gospel centered arguments than that!

    • Pat F. says:

      I have found all of this interesting as I am now studying the “Trinity” as it exists in Scripture. In my early lessons, I was taught: The reason we needed to be saved is because we (man) sinned against God (broke His rules in the Garden of Eden). The only way we (mortal man) could be saved is by the sacrifice of one of our own (again, mortal man). So Jesus was born of woman (making Him a mortal man) to make the sacrifice required. God is not man and man is not God. But God’s spirit brought about a virgin birth (this makes Him the Son of God) and given His humanity..He could atone for our sins. All that being said..Faith is required for all beliefs and yet it is the most difficult to deliver. Either you have it..or you don’t. I cannot give you faith, no one can..But according to the Scriptures…he who believeth in Him, he will be saved. Keep His commandments and believe in Him…thank you and God bless..

  • David says:


    We silly humans are very good at turning simple matters into HUGE confusing messes. Here is how I understand the Trinity:

    God made himself human (Jesus) by way of His (Holy)spirit.

    Can we not see God in ourselves? We are made in his likeness. This means to me: We are God’s children(sons and daughters) and we all have souls(spirit of God) and even though our tiny brains are nothing to be compared to God’s mind, we are still created in his likeness and therfore have the abilities of knowing and understanding and many other amazing things…
    Aren’t we all, each and everyone of us, a tiny fraction of God’s mightiness and divine being because he created us in his likeness? Is it obvious that we, in ourselves, contain the three portions of the one God?
    Jesus sits at the right hand of God. The Holy Spirit is God’s grace among us.

    I do not think that there are three separate Gods, but he is infinitly wonderous and we humans can barely wrap our brains around all that He is.

    Let’s leave it at: God is all and everything forever and I thank Him everyday that he created me and you.

  • matt says:

    Are you guys seriously denying the trinity!? You are all heretics! You are all fools! Christ is not just a divine human, but he is God himself. He claims this when he said, “Before Abraham was. I Am.”

    If God were to give glory to any other than himself, then in the OT when we see things like, “I cannot give my glory to another,” we must conclude that God himself is an idolator if Christ is not God and God is indeed lifting up Christ’s name above every name. You obviously have not searched scriptures for the truth. You twist things to you own itching ears, surrounding yourselves with false teachers.

    God is one. Christ is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. Trinity.

    I would guess you guys don’t have your theology checked by actual Christians. Cause you can’t be a Christian if you deny that Christ is God. And you can’t be a Christian if the Spirit of God is not God. You can’t be a Christian if the Father is not in union with the others.

    Do not let yourselves wander into “I think” theology. That kind of theology is false. Do not claim to be a Christian if you follow the heresy of these false teachers who wax poetic of things they don’t understand.

  • keith says:

    matt and david, are you guys for real? you both are so convinced, and talk all that mess about the trinity, but you have no scriptures to support your belief. Matt ‘the genuis’ did mention john 8:58 though. wow! one scripture to base your belief on. And who said you werent smart. do a little research. there are bibles that have that verse translated correct. look up this verse in the AT, NTW, MO, CBW, or the SE. instead of ‘i am’ its translated ‘i existed’ or ‘i have been’ , they all convey the same idea. so which rendering agrees with the context? the question of the jews (vs 57) which jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. jesus reply logically delt with his age, the length of his existence.

  • ted says:

    Interestingly the word TRINITY nor idea is nowhere in the Bible.
    if it were a fact wouldn’t you think it would be plainly stated, instead it says.
    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
    1.Mark 10:18
    “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
    Mark 10:17-19
    2.Luke 18:19
    “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
    Luke 18:18-20
    Hebrews 5:8
    Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
    Why and How could God Learn obedience to anyone?
    Or learn from anyone for that matter.
    Colossians 1:15
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    ****Interesting that
    God (Jehovah) The father , on many ocassions sent the son or sent the spirit but no hwere does ANYONE send the Father. How is that if they are equal?
    Wouldn’t you think it would at least say somewhere
    God the son or God the Holy Spirit or the very least God the father, distinquising a difference and yet the same.
    Peope use those expressions a lot today but why does the Bible leave that statement out.
    Could it be because Yahweh or Jehovah is the only Almighty GOD.
    1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (New International Version)

    4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5.For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6.yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Luke 22:42
    “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
    Why would it not be his will also if they were the same.
    Why did he even have to pray to someone else, if he were GOD?

    Acts 2:33
    Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

    Really, God sat at the right hand of himself? and if he were God How was he exalted?
    Acts 7:56
    “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” Again saw in heven next to god.
    Why is there NO vision of a trinity?? A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
    Also The Father is jehovah, the son is Jesus, what is the Holy Spirits name? if it is god or person? (The Holy Spirit is NOT a name but a title just as son of father.
    And if you were wanting to express to mankind you had an equal but seperate person or personality wouldn’t you more likely use a term like brother or twin?
    And the list of questions goes on, but I can’t touch on them all here.
    Just a few points to reason on, hope you take this well, hinestly,open minded,and with humility.

  • walking by faith says:

    If we could fathom Yehovah’s ways what would make Him God of ALL. For every knee is going to bow and every tongue is going to confess that He is LORD. Our human minds are limited by our flesh. Faith in Him allows our spirit man to believe stuff that makes no sense to a mortal man. Faith allows us to walk not by sight and allows us to hope. If Eve would have trusted Yehovah’s words to be true, His Word not have to have become flesh and die so that we may live, and His Holy Spirit left here to be our comforter and teacher. HIS TRUTH is not rationalized it is believed because of our faith. Someone my disagree with merely a statement, but if you want to know the truth ask Him and He will teach you because it is His will for us to know the truth. The truth is the only thing that will set the captive free. Yehovah is not author of confusion and He most definitely He is not a liar. Our conviction of His Word will come straight from Him. Trust Him and believe. May Yehovah have mercy on anyone leads His children astray for their blood will be their hands.

  • Nicholas says:

    Many varied and interesting approaches to this subject. I can’t say I’m not disappointed by the doctrinal segregation I see going on here, however. Are we not all supposed to be a part of the Body of Christ? I know some of you would claim that others of you are not even saved because of the understanding and beliefs they hold concerning the trinity (or lack there of) issue.

    I propose this: If we can all agree that Jesus is God’s answer to our problem. We have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. Salvation can only be found in believing in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. One day EVERYONE will confess Jesus is LORD and bow before him. These are things that have or will happen. If we can all agree on this, then I assure you we are all saved AND that we are all a part of Christ’s body. Therefore we should love one another. If I hear words like “fool” brandied about towards anyone, whether saved or not, then the speaker needs to check his own spirit and make sure he is right with God.

    I don’t think there is anything wrong with applying human terms to things scriptural in order to better understand them, as long as we don’t put our terms above the ONE they are trying to understand. Is the word rapture in the Bible? No. But what it describes, is that in the Bible? Yes. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No. But the three key players to our existence and salvation, are they in the Bible? Yes.

    Don’t let the things of man separate you from the love of God, whether they are right or wrong. Love God FIRST with everything you got. Love you neighbor second. If this discussion is causing you to fail in either of the two above areas, you should just forget about it, or cut if off from your life, as Jesus would recommend.

  • SlickRick says:

    I find it very interesting that people are having such a hard time with the overall sequence of events. (ie the creation of Jesus, when and how the world was created.) Believing that Jesus is God (Yaweh)is an incredeble idea. Yes it is true that Jesus and God created all of the earth and the heavens together, but this does not mean they a triune god. even Jesus himself states this at numerous points. The bible is very clear about the time of creation for Jesus Christ. In Proverbs 8:22-31 (NIV) it speaks of Jesus being brought forth as the “first of his works.” verse 23 goes on to say “I was appointed from eternity (GOD) , from the beginning, before the world began.” So when I hear that people are pointing to the creation of the world in Genisis saying, “here, here, don’t you see it says WE created the earth,” I realize that while this statement is true, the person saying it believes Jesus, and GOD are one god because they believe the beginning of all time is the same as the beginning of our times. (ie. the creation of earth.) Please understand that what you are reading today is not always what was originally written, and that our bible books are NOT in chronilogical order. To believe that either of these are truths is at your disadvantage.

    My second point that I would like to take the time to make is to all of the those who say that by not claiming Jesus is GOD we are taking away Jesus’ purpose, power, or our personal love for him. To this I say, who are you to know what is in my heart? The bible states, Who are you to judge another mans servant? I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I realize the message that he came to earth to give to us. I KNOW that he died for my sins, but even he does not claim to be the one true GOD, only the Son of God. John 14:28-31 Jesus directly says, “for the Father is greater than I.” If the trinity is bringing true glory to GOD, and all of these “Persons” within the Trinity are co-existent, and co-equal, than why is there so much evidence of the creation of Jesus (God has never had a beginning,) and that the Father is greater than the son, even in Jesus own words?

    There are too many biblical contradictions. We are not here nor were we made for the glory of one another, ourselves, or any human being on earth, we were only made for the glory of our father, and so is the case with all things created. Please READ your bible! Listen to the words of GOD! He has perfectly revealed to us what we need for our salvation through his son Christ Jesus.

  • (another) David says:

    This is a rather belated post, but though I know the perils of raising this issue again, I hope we can all agree with Nicholas, and with that in mind I present an extremely brief summary of my interpretation:
    Is the Father God? Yes. Is the Son God? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit God? Yes. Is Jesus Christ the Son of God? Yes. Is Jesus Christ the Lord? Yes. But the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, and neither of them are the Spirit, and the Spirit is neither of them. But I believe even these or the doctrine of the Triune God are not necessary for us to understand God, because He has already revealed Himself in the best way through the Scriptures:
    The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. The Father and the Son are one. Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came in the flesh. The Lord Jesus also spoke about the Holy Spirit not in one or two sentences but in many verses that have to be understood as a whole. Once He even cried out to everyone about coming to Him to drink, and John wrote that He spoke about the Spirit, which was not yet, because He had not yet been glorified. Later Paul wrote, “the first man Adam became a living soul, the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit”, and also “the Lord is the Spirit”, “and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” The Scriptures identify Christ very clearly with God but never says things like “Christ is the Father” or “the Holy Spirit was crucified” or “the Father became flesh”. So let the Lord speak through His own Word to us, and let us search it and see if what we are taught is indeed the truth in the Word.