Do you believe in the Trinity?
For Sam Allberry, confessing that you believe in the Trinity is one thing, actually acting like it’s true is another.
Sam argues in his provocatively titled post, The Rise of Islamic Christianity, that it’s possible to hold to a stated belief in the Trinity, yet functionally act as if we are Unitarians. Unless we actively seek to involve Trinitarian thinking into our lives and community we’ll find ourselves in two predicaments:
1. Our view of church will become functional and not relational.
We will only meet to “do” things, and will not really see the point of meeting for merely social reasons. Our gatherings will become a matter of utility and not family….The minister will see his congregation as ‘clients’; his ministry as one of shunting people through the right programs. He will see himself as a professional ‘Bible teacher’. His people will feel handled rather than loved. The church will be the place to grow for a while in understanding, or at least in Bible knowledge, but will not be the place to find authentic Christian community.2. Our aim for church will be uniformity and not diversity.
The Trinity shows us a God who is unity in diversity rather than unity in sameness. The Father, Son and Spirit are not interchangeable. They share an ontological unity, but function differently within the purposes of God. This lies behind Paul’s teaching on the variety of gifts found in the church in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6.
He continues to argue that acting as Unitarians leads to conformity of the worst kind. We won’t value the diverse gifts of the kingdom. We won’t even be able to act as the body of Christ because instead of celebrating the cornucopia of spiritual gifts, we’ll uphold one gift as the only true one.
In my mind, Allberry’s key point is that our belief in the Trinity is both an intellectual and a spiritual matter.
Some struggle with the intellectual aspect of the Trinity, it might never make philosophical sense, but they can readily trust in it by faith. For others, they have no problem intellectually believing it, it’s the faith part they have a hard time with. Either way, it should be patently clear to anyone who has tried to discuss the Trinity that it’s not an easy concept to grasp, but—as Allberry points out—it has profound effects on everything to do with our faith: how we read the Bible, how we interact with God, how we pray, how we live in community, etc.
Do you agree with Allberry? Have you seen how your beliefs (or other’s beliefs) about the Trinity effect interactions with other people? Can a nominal belief in the Trinity really lead to a dismantling of Christian community?
I think it’s often the other way around. In living in community, with both the homogeneous and diverse, we “can” better understand the Trinity. When the community creates unity, it is both the salt and pepper that energizes the community and makes it worthwhile. The Trinity is a community of three, both homogeneous and diverse AT THE SAME TIME. What a wonderful example to us who have been created in the immage and likeness of God, the Trinity.
I have read the whole Bible , and nowhere does it say God is three persons. I know a lot of people believe that to be true, but I am from Missouri, you have to show me. Until then I conclude that is just someone’s idea. No way is God a trinity. Check it out yourself.
There is only 1 God; there never has been nor will there ever be more than 1. All throughout the old testament God stated the fact that there is none other beside Him and that He alone made the worlds and He also said there would never be another Savior other than Himself. Deut. 6:4 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. When Isaiah prophesied about the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ), he said His name shall be called Wonderful, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace….. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy, Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, believed on in the world, received up into glory. That word manifest means to show oneself and to be plainly recognized. Jesus told Phillip, When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father. Jesus said in John 10:30, I and my Father are one. James 2:19 says Thou believest that there is one God? thou doest well; the devils also believe and tremble. There are so many more scriptures which proclaim the Oneness of God; I hope this helps someone.
It doesn’t help tell me who was he praying to in the garden, and tell me why he prayed to the father that he would send the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit. and tell me why it says let us make man in our image, in the KJV which is the authorized version of the bible.
Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”
Hello’ I would like to say that I have enjoyed the dialogue and am more inclined on what brian has to say due to the word trinity just being a word used to discribe God in three different persons,by the way has anyone looked up the word(distinct)meaning something can not be the same as the other thing. what about the wording being used even though we dont see it used like that in the bible (God the Son )we do see the wording the man Christ Jesus.
Hey thanks for allowing me this time, God Bless
I do not believe in the Trinity. I believe in God the Father and God the Son.
Matthew 1:20 ….. because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
If you believe in the Trinity and that the Holy Spirit is a separate being, then you believe that Christ is not the Son of God, but the Son of the Holy Spirit.
Hmm, that’s a tricky one. I’m not a theologian, but it would seem to follow that if you think that the Godhead contains all three personas, then even if Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, he would still be born of God. It sounds like you have a problem with the Holy Spirit being considered God.
Care to explain your position a bit more? I might not be understanding you completely.
Anyone else care to chime in?
First, the ideas of the trinity were not created overnight! Study the historical reasons for why we have arrived at this doctrine and you might appreciate the complexity of the issue (which no one in the thread has really touched upon… namely the reason why there were so many councils about the God-hood of Jesus and the unity of the three persons of God).
Second, the critical point of the trinity is that the three persons are the same substance but different persons within the unity of being, ‘Yahweh’. This is critical because unless Jesus was the same substance (what they referred to as homoousios) as the Father and Spirit, then he would not have the saving power at the cross and subsequent glorification to redeem, sanctify, and glorify us. So, the critical point of the trinity is not simply does the word ‘trinity’ exist in the Bible, or can we use wordplays to get this whole ‘God’ thing down… Rather, the problem is salvific and the very nature of the redemption. The church fathers were struggling with how the scriptures defined Jesus alongside the very nature of His work and the essence of His being both God and man.
Third, when people say there is no trinity or that they do not believe in the Trinity, they must consider what they do believe in… ie. you must positively and negatively define what and who ‘God’ is, which leaves them with an immense problem: trying to positively describe something infinite in human language and terms. When we say the ‘trinity’ there is by definition a limited human inadequacy to describe the very nature of existence and being; however, it is the most Biblical term that positively describes the relationship between the three persons of the Godhead.
Now, this is where all the non-trinitarians have issues: what about this problem or that problem.. (ie. Holy Spirit birthed Him or show me the ‘trinity’). When we start trying to define God based on all the exceptions and problems we are forgetting that issue is full comprehension of God (grasping all that God is…which is impossible) rather than the apprehension of who God is (as He has revealed to us positively through His own revelation). We don’t know the answer to some issues, however we do have the revelation of who God is in the scriptures and through this we apprehend the complexity of the trinity (through the various descriptions of the relationships… some quoted above).
So, if you have qualms with the trinity and want someone to show it to you in scripture… you need to step back and think about this.. We are trying to describe infinity, the very nature of being and upon which everything exists and has essence… reality is pretty complicated (try studying nuclear physics) and it reflects a fraction of who God is. The word ‘trinity’ is simply a human attempt to amass the scriptural idea of God and His being as it relates to the Father, Son, and Spirit.
My suggestion would be to study the early church councils and the reasons they reached some of their decisions. It will bring clarity and appreciation to the doctrine that we so easily take for granted.
@Fred Thanks for your thoughts on this one!
When asked by a scribe the greatest commandment, Jesus responded,
(Mark 12:29&30) The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. This is quoting the Shema, found in Deut. 6:4.
Jesus knew whom he was, and he knew he wasn’t God, in Matthew 19 he even clearly seperated and ended any possible of such a claim in Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
So why should we believe something Jesus clearly didn’t believe himself!
I think Mark brings up a few good points. Any Church historians or Theologians who would care to respond?
Chris,
I understand the answer, Jesus was purely a Biblical monotheist.
He understood that he was not God, he never claimed to be “God the Son” only the “Son of God”.
The Bible in no way presents a trinity of God, even the favored Genesis 1 were there is a plural term used in both the Hebrew and in translation, we have to understand the Hebrew idioms and rules and realize that this is a such a huge moment, that the plural is used to signify the magnitude of importance this was to God. Isaiah 44:24, that says, Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” It was only God in the beginning, for “He alone spread out the earth”
Jesus is God’s son whose existence began at the time of inception as God’s spirit moved over Mary. John 4:24, that says, “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” unlocks for us the identity of the Holy Spirit, it is not describing another 1/3 of God it is describing the only One True God.
God is only One, not a 2 in 1 or 3 in 1.
I worded the original blog as a question, to encourage Bible study, as good Bereans, to borrow a phrase from Paul.
Mark D.
@Mark thanks for giving us more of your thoughts!
What about John 1 then? John seems to argue quite thoroughly that Jesus existed at the beginning along with God with his bodily existence beginning when Mary was impregnated.
I think I know the answer to this based on your comment, but would you argue that Jesus was not God? If so, where does that leave Jesus?
Well, That question goes back to taking words for what they say at face value.
In John 1 the word ‘logos’ was translated to the word ‘word’.
Amazingly, in every other instance where the word ‘logos’ is used in the Greek, it is translated as small letter “w”, the only instance is in John 1.
The ‘logos’ is simply as the definition from Strong’s states, from G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
Jesus Christ in John 1 is the “Divine Expression” of God. John 1 isn’t referring to anything other than the Divine Expression that had in mind from before the creation of this world, a plan of salvation for fallen mankind.
Jesus Christ, was a man born of a woman, with divine attributes from his heavenly Father. These divine attributes are what gave him the ability to live a sinless life qualifying him to become our sacrificial passover lamb once and for all.
I hope this helps, as a Biblical monotheist, I still shower honor and praise and all glory due to Jesus, for we are told in Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Mark D.
I think it’s interesting to note in the sited scripture that the ‘rich young ruler’ ask Jesus ‘what good thing must I do to obtain ETERNAL LIFE?’ Jesus responded immediately by asking a question related to himself…’Why are you asking ME about what is good? There is only One who is good.’ (Was Jesus implying that he was NOT good? or asking the man to consider why He CALLED Jesus good, when ONLY ONE IS GOOD?) He gave the man several things to do in order to ‘obtain eternal life’(basically a works salvation and giving up his entire life to follow JESUS V.18-21.) The man went away grieving because he was rich v. 22(implied – that he wouldn’t give up his worldly wealth.) After another statement from Jesus about how hard it was to enter the kingdom of God, his disciples then asked ‘Who then can be saved?’ And Jesus replied…’With people this is impossible,[implied 'you can't save yourself' i.e. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23] but with God all things are possible.” v. 26.
In John 5:39-40. Jesus says..’You search the scriptures (that would be the OLD TESTAMENT) because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.’ In John 6:40. The words of Jesus are..’For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Either the statements in John are true and Jesus is the answer to ‘how shall I obtain eternal life’ or they are false and none of the scriptures are valid.
As to the question of the Trinity. If you attempt to explain it using ‘human’ reason or understanding – you will always fail because it is beyond all human understanding. The scriptures are plain. John 1:1 ‘In the beginning is the Word,(identified as Jesus in v. 14) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’ and John 1:18 ‘No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten GOD who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.’ This scripture CLEARLY identifies Jesus with God. It is either true or not true.
In Matthew 19:16-17 Jesus was pointing to the oxymoron in the man’s title of Jesus. He was telling the man to either believe that he was God (and not call him a teacher) or believe him to be a man (then don’t call him good). Jesus was not refering commenting on how he saw himself, but rather letting the man know that he had to choose, he could not have it both ways.
if God were to be a trinity. Then you have three petsons of God. And these three persons are to be in one. Well then in genesis were it says let us make man in our image . Then the one God who is supposively a trinity is speaking to someone else. How can you say God is three in one. And then read a scripture where the word us is used. And then say see one person speaking to the other. What definition of one are yall using? I’m not bashing anyones beliefs. But if you believe in a trinity then you are straight up an idolotar. Jesus said you can’t have more than one master. Because you are gone to love one and hate the other. Well my trinitarian friend you have three. If all you got to do is accept Jesus in your life then the other two people of your trinity are being left out. Besides Jesus don’t need us to accept him. I’m doing all I can to get HIM to accept me. Notice how God is always letting us know he can do it all by himself. A trinity mind is pretty much saying God needs help. Wish I had more space. Thank you in Jesus name. Acts 2:38 is salvation
@Acts 2:38 As Fred pointed out above: I think it helps to think of the Trinity as three distinct personas of the same substance. Together they are God, yet they still have separate functions.
I’m probably being unclear. Hopefully someone else can respond to you.
Chris & Fred,
Based on Fred’s explanation of the trinity then verses such as,
Romans 8:34, “Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died–more than that, who was raised–who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.”
or
Ephesians 1:20-21, “that he (God=vs.17) worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
If the trinity were true verses such as this would be pointless, if they were of the same substance, why would Jesus need to sit at the Father’s right hand?
If they were of the same substance, why would the Father have had to raise Jesus from the dead, Jesus would have been able to raise himself.
The discussion of the trinity becomes quite cylindrical at this point, chasing man made ideas and arguments rather than accepting simply the Word of God for what it says plainly in black and white.
Mark D.
We have one military, yet the Army, Navy (Marines included here), and Air Force each have separate functions. Each branch performs its mission without trying to do the job of another branch although each has the power to do the job itself. For instance, if an airstrike is needed, Navy pilots are just as capable as Air Force pilots, but since it is the Air Force’s job, they are the ones called upon. The Holy Trinity is much like this. Each part is the same God (each branch is part of the same military), but an infinant God occupies three different beings (since we are not infinite, we can only occupy one being). Each being has infinite power, but only does its job, and allows the other beings to do theirs. I hope this helps.
yeah,the trinity is a pagan teaching. after doing research if anyone still believes that they are in denial. but the bible makes it clear. col 1:15′16 “the firstborn” in order to be born you have to be created. mark 13:32 this wouldnt be the case if they were coequal making a godhead.john 14:28 “greater then i”. 1cor 11:3 clearly then,christ is not God,God is of superior rank to christ. 1 cor 15:27,28. matt 12:31,32 wouldnt this contradict the trinity doctrine,putting the holy sprit ahead of jesus? matt 26:39. also john 8:17,18 jesus spoke of himself as being an individual separate from the father…just to name a few.
couple quick thoughts for everyone who still denies the relationship of the trinity…
First, the Shema does not negate the concept of the Trinity, but amplifies the understanding of the “I-you-us” relationship within the Godhead. God is perfect in part because He self-sustains within Himself a relationship between persons, yet remains a single identity.
Second, in reference to Jesus’ words about the relationship He had with His Father (when He often referred to His Father as greater or He submitted to His Father), He often took an obeisance stance with respect to the will of God which does not mean He was less than God. It is describing how He functions within the historical redemption of mankind alongside the roles of the Father and Spirit. We are dealing with the intricacies of the relationship within God Himself… don’t expect to make a perceived exception the general for the nature of Jesus. See the myriad of other scriptures where Jesus calls Himself “one with the Father” and “before Abraham was born, I AM” (clearly identifying Himself as YHWH, God of the OT). Or take Colossian 1:15-20 or Philippians 2.
Third, one cannot take one scripture to the exclusion of the rest. It also helps to know the Greek words that underlie various parts and descriptions. The ‘firstborn’ is describing something that is also balanced with the idea in John 1:1… namely, the idea that Jesus, although a man, was both a part of our time and existence and yet existed apart from time in eternity; it is the miracle of the infinite interacting with the finite, the timeless in time itself.
We are arguing about the exceptions and the attempts to describe infinity, not getting to the real argument… How could a mere man die to save us? Or even a superman? Only if Jesus was God could He do what has been done in scripture…unite us with God.
Fred,
Here is a paper a friend of mine gave at a theological conference this last spring giving the history of the concept of the trinity. Jesse is a very educated man, he holds several degrees from universities across this country and is finishing a doctoral thesis this year on yet another. I hope you enjoy it, it is a bit long but if you will follow it through to the end, you will understand the disdain that a few of the bloggers have had.
[Gospel.com Admin note: in lieu of reposting the whole article here, please follow this link in order to read a .pdf of the paper.]
Frankly, I am surprised that his arguments have any weight for persuasion. He argues in the beginning that Anthanasias borrowed his ideas from Plato and the pagan ideas of trinities… however, it is a non-sequitor that if an idea is similar to another that it is the same or the origin of such an idea. Also, Greek thought was used to clarify the difficulties in scripture not redefine it. Acuff worms his way out of a solid argument by simply waving his hand at the similarities of thought in Athanasias and pagan mythologies then pronouncing them equally pagan. It is possible the idea of a trinity is employed elsewhere in creation and in pagan thinking, but it is a non-sequiter to assume this means Athanasias introduced it apart from a scriptural basis and argument or that it means the trinity is from pagan influence. Acuff might do better to deal with the specific arguments presented by Athanasias in the councils for why the trinitarian definition was originally introduced. There are a lot of missing parts and sequences in Acuff’s train of thought and argument.
Further, he quotes Billy Graham? …why does he quote a mainstream evangelist and not a serious systematic theologian? Serious straw man! …and this was given at a theological conference? How does one begin to dissect the complex ideas of the trinity by starting with arguments and quotes from Billy Graham and the jumping conclusions like that from the early church fathers (aka Athanasias)?
Sorry, but he really fails to address serious arguments from the other side at all… Educated or not, degrees or whatever, the article does not represent an accurate picture of the development of the trinity or subsequent arguments by historical and modern theologians. Maybe his other work is better, but this was simply terrible academic work and writing.
I hope this is not the sort of work being relied upon to define the ideas of God from scripture! We need more scripture and gospel centered arguments than that!
Hello,
We silly humans are very good at turning simple matters into HUGE confusing messes. Here is how I understand the Trinity:
God made himself human (Jesus) by way of His (Holy)spirit.
Can we not see God in ourselves? We are made in his likeness. This means to me: We are God’s children(sons and daughters) and we all have souls(spirit of God) and even though our tiny brains are nothing to be compared to God’s mind, we are still created in his likeness and therfore have the abilities of knowing and understanding and many other amazing things…
Aren’t we all, each and everyone of us, a tiny fraction of God’s mightiness and divine being because he created us in his likeness? Is it obvious that we, in ourselves, contain the three portions of the one God?
Jesus sits at the right hand of God. The Holy Spirit is God’s grace among us.
I do not think that there are three separate Gods, but he is infinitly wonderous and we humans can barely wrap our brains around all that He is.
Let’s leave it at: God is all and everything forever and I thank Him everyday that he created me and you.
Are you guys seriously denying the trinity!? You are all heretics! You are all fools! Christ is not just a divine human, but he is God himself. He claims this when he said, “Before Abraham was. I Am.”
If God were to give glory to any other than himself, then in the OT when we see things like, “I cannot give my glory to another,” we must conclude that God himself is an idolator if Christ is not God and God is indeed lifting up Christ’s name above every name. You obviously have not searched scriptures for the truth. You twist things to you own itching ears, surrounding yourselves with false teachers.
God is one. Christ is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. Trinity.
I would guess you guys don’t have your theology checked by actual Christians. Cause you can’t be a Christian if you deny that Christ is God. And you can’t be a Christian if the Spirit of God is not God. You can’t be a Christian if the Father is not in union with the others.
Do not let yourselves wander into “I think” theology. That kind of theology is false. Do not claim to be a Christian if you follow the heresy of these false teachers who wax poetic of things they don’t understand.