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Is Batism Necessary for Salvation?
There’s a lot of nuances to baptism (sprinkling v. immersion, adult v. child, etc.), but I’d like to focus on the core question of whether or not it’s essential for salvation. What's your perspective?
http://gospel.com/blog/index.php/2009/10/22/is-batism-necessary-for-salvation/
Topics:
Salvation, Baptism, Sacraments
All Topics
Yes, I believe it is! If it were not, that means the scriptures lie and there is no truth in them.
Acts 1: 5, Matt. 3: 11, 20: 22, 21: 25, Acts 10: 47, 48
There is only one baptism Eph. 4: 5
Matt. 28: 18, 19, Mk. 16: 15, 16
Acts 8: 36-39, cf. Jn. 3: 23, Matt. 3: 16
Baptism is a burial Rom. 6: 4, Col. 2: 12
People who are taught are the people needing to be baptized Jn. 6: 44, 45
You must beleive to be baptized Mk. 16: 15, 16, Acts 2: 38, 8: 36, 37, KJV, Rom. 10: 9, 10
Remission of sin Acts 2: 38, 22: 16
Redemption Eph. 1: 3, 7
Salvation Mk. 16: 16, I Pet. 3: 21
To enter into Chirst Gal. 3: 26, 27, I Cor. 12: 13 Gal. 3: 26, 27 Jn. 3: 5
Obedience is needed to be saved Acts 10: 47, 48 Heb. 5: 8, 9
Acts 2: 37, 38, 41
Beleif is not enough
Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
After they believed what was said, Peter warned them to be save and they were baptized. If baptism had nothin to do with being saved why were they baptized and why were they added to their number(peopled who are save i.e. The Church
Baptism what is it and what does it mean?
Baptism has caused quite a stir amongst believers since the founding of the church. The main reason why we have so arguments surrounding this as there are as many different modes and practices of baptism is because the Bible does not give us a clear pronouncement on the mode or way of doing it. The Bible and God’s truth is more concerned with the idea and motives behind it and not the exercise of it. So we cloud the meaning with our limited understanding placing the emphases on the mode and not the reason. The importance is why we are being baptized and what it represents not how or even who for the most part we baptize.
Baptism means a ceremonial cleansing and purification: a sign that tells God that we have repented and seek His forgiveness and desire to accept a new life. The word literally means to be immersed, it also means to be identified as or committed too. When you put in the context of the passages it means to be immersed in the identification and obedience of Christ, not just the water or mode, which is a symbol (Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:13; Eph. 1:13-14; l5: 25-27; Col. 2:11-12; Titus 3:5).
It is a symbol of our union and covenant with our Lord (1 John 5:11-12).
It is a sign of our commitment to be His disciple (Matt. 28:19).
It is a work of our Lord that we participate by contributing our faith and obedience (Rom 6: 3-11; Col 2:9-13)!
If baptism was essential for salvation, why do you suppose that Jesus did not baptize anyone?
Christian adult/ believer’s baptism is the public profession that a changed occurred in you by the way of repentance! We cannot have salvation without repentance. Grace is free, but grace cannot come in a heart where it is not welcomed, and being unrepentant means we will not welcome His grace! Baptism is not a magic “get into Heaven card” or to receive His blessings and riches, nor is it even mandatory; hence why some Christian groups do not practice it (Salvation Army).
Baptism does not have a specific mode, such as to say baptism in the name of Jesus, or in the Trinity, or to immerse, dunk, sprinkle, hose off in the parking lot, or my favorite hold them down until they really repent (kidding). Baptism means to be cleansed, and Christians have no basis to fight over which mode (yet we do any way), since no specific mode is required or even taught in Scripture. We are just commanded to do it! The “modes†come from various passages is Acts and in church history, when they were not near water they sprinkled, when they were near water they immersed (simple), and that transitioned into tradition for various groups.
A lot of people think baptism is necessary for salvation and quote John 3:4-7; however they miss the point of the passage about Nicademas and baptism in general. Thinking it is essential for our salvation. It is essential in that we are commanded to do it, but it is not essential for salvation, because we are saved by what Christ has done period. Justification by faith alone through His grace alone, and not by any work of ourselves (Eph. 2:8-9). The water in the Nicademas passage is not referring to baptism, but to natural birth, notice the word flesh in verse 6 that makes this clear. When a person is born the mother’s water breaks and it is time to give birth, “being born of waterâ€.
Salvation is from Christ through our faith, by His grace. Baptism is the sign and acknowledgement we do to show it. It is our identification and public proclamation, but Scripture does not teach we need baptism to be saved. It is a ceremony. The Scriptures that people use to make this point are taken out of their context and clear meaning (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom 6: 3-8; 2 Thes. 1:19; 1 Peter 3:21). Marriage is also a ceremony that shows the marriage commitment to the public, but the ceremony does not marry you, it is the license from the court that does! Christ is our license, the baptism is the ceremony. We of course are commanded to obey and be baptized, but again baptism does in no way contribute to our salvation.
If you have not been baptized we encourage you to do so. You should find a good church to be apart of (if not so already), where the Word is taught and you can be involved. Then seek the pastor to be baptized. If you think your baptism contributed to your salvation, then please carefully examine the Scriptures and get your thinking aligned with His truth. If you have already been baptized as an infant it is not necessary to be re-baptized, as long as you proclaim the faith.
Baptism is not necessary for your salvation, but we are called to do it as a sign of our regeneration, our acceptance of His grace.
Infant Baptism?
The Bible neither explicitly commands the practice of baptizing infant children of believing parents or prohibits it. Most mainline churches practice infant baptism, only the Baptists and recently in the 20th century the Fundamental, Pentecostal and Evangelical churches have refused to do so. The Catholic Church teaches that infant baptism washes away original sin and is regenerative, however nowhere does the Bible teach this! In Protestant and Reformed churches, infant baptism is not regenerative but covenantal and validated through the believing parent(s), and sealed only if they accept Christ as an adult. The baptism looks forward to the consummation of the person as an adult or of age making a public profession of their faith. This seals and completes the baptism as a believer. When the adult does not make a profession of their faith the baptism becomes null and void, as it has not been consummated. God lives outside of space and time, so to Him the timing is not important, the obedience is.
There are no clear accounts of infant baptism in the Bible. However, it cannot be completely disqualified as a possibility given that entire households were baptized including children and infants. (Rom. 7:12-14 see carefully verse 14!) Although most baptisms in the NT and the early church were Adults only (Acts 16:15, 33; 18:8)! The early church practiced infant baptism without controversy until the second century.
There are good Biblical arguments against this practice by godly people, who see baptism as a seal of accepting Christ. Thus an infant is unable to accept, as they are not cognitively aware of what is happening. So a baptism should not be given until after faith is presented. Again they are right! But they often do not take into account the public profession of faith, which is the purpose of the baptism, to publicly proclaim Christ as Lord. Which infant baptism looks too. And it acts as a covenant to bring the child up in the faith to be taught and nurtured.
Most Evangelical churches practice infant dedication as a substitute. Under careful study (this is my opinion and not shared by most Reformed or Evangelical theologians) I believe it is semantics that separate the Reformed perspective from the Evangelical one (as I have served in churches that practice either or both), as both teach it is the proclamation of faith as an adult that accepts Christ’s work. Both see it as a process of faith and duty of the parents to rear their child in a godly way teaching them the facts about the faith. Both see it as a form of circumcision looking to the OT command, and both do not believe baptism saves us. Only the Catholic Church would be in disagreement and some Fundamental groups.
Do I personally baptize infants? Yes and no. I never have, but if a parent would like me too, I would, just after 20 years, no one has asked me too, only dedications. (Gen. 17:1-14; Acts 2:38-39; 16:25-34) I personally prefer to baptize people in a large natural body of water, but again the method is not important!
Jesus and John’s Baptism (Isa. 40:3; Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:1-5; II Cor. 5:21)
The baptism that John gave may seem similar to a Christian baptism, but remember that they were preformed before the sacrament was called for by Christ (Matt. 28:18-20). Johns’ baptism was identified by the OT covenant as a requirement to be prepared as John preached that the kingdom of God was at hand as the herald for the Messiah. In the OT, gentiles were required to repent and under go a purification rite before becoming Jews. So John’s baptism was a means of purification and preparation. John was getting people ready for the Christ. The Jewish leaders objected to John’s baptism because he was treating fellow Jews, as they were gentiles, which the leaders believed Jews did not need purification, which of course they did.
Jesus baptism was not for the cleansing of sin or purification. John objected to baptize Jesus because he knew Jesus was sinless. But John did not realize that even though Jesus did not need it, for Him to be the Messiah He had to submit to every aspect of the Law in our place. Thus, He submitted Himself to the law on our behalf and identified Himself as a fully sinful human (even though He was not sinful) and fully God. He was anointed (ordained – called and set apart) by the Spirit for the ministry of redeeming us. His name means the anointed one so it climaxed with His baptism (Isa. 61:1).
© 1998, 2002 R.J. Krejcir Into Thy Word Ministries http://www.intothyword.com
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if you have to do a work like sprinkling or being immersed to be save, then you would have something to brag about. No grace would be involved. Read Ephesians 2:8-10. Works demonstrate salvation – THEY DO NOT SAVE
Where in the Bible is being(submitting to) baptism referred to as a work?
MT 3:15 Jesus tells John it is necessary to fulfill all righteousness, and Titus 3:4-7 teach that we are justified by grace not works of righteousness.
1 John 1:7 tells us that it is the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from all sin.
Eph 2:8-9, not of works ie, not of anything that we do/have done are we saved. Baptism is something we do and what we do is a work. We do the work of baptism after we have been born again, hence, it is a work OF righteousness verses TO righteousness.
Baptism is for the Remission of sins. We are all born sinners, but until a child understands wrong from right baptism is not necessary. On the other hand we need to be Baptized for the remission of our sins because there is no sin in heaven. Praise The Lord.(JESUS).
Many good comments on salvation and encouraging to read however, snoopr1 has captured the truth of the matter. I suggest everyone read Acts and go by the examples in those conversions. God does not change and God does not confuse. There is one baptism, one true church and one salvation. Paul, in Romans discusses those who critise God through open rebellion and different paths. No one wants to face judgement after choosing another path than the path commanded by God.
Thank you Richard, Also in Ephesians 4:4-5 it says there is “One GOD, One Faith, and One Baptism”. You can’t get it any clearer than that. Don’t get me wrong please, I am not judging anyone, I am just bringing the truth as it is written. I will kneel and my tounge will confess one day just like everyone else. And I believe that day is very soon. It is time for us all to get right and stay right. May GOD bless you Richly.
Acts 16:31: They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household.” Baptism? Hmmm…
yes there were no specification but then immersion was practiced more.it all boils down to the fact that baptism is necessary for our growth
Acts 16:31 – They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.
After they heard the word of the Lord, they were all (immediately) baptized….
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation? Absolutely NO! Read the Bible folks in its context, for starters see Eph 2:8-9…
Baptism means to be immersed as in the identification and obedience of Christ, it is not about the water or mode, which are mere symbols, it is all about our commitment to follow and be discipled (Matt. 28: Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:13; Eph. 1:13-14; l5: 25-27; Col. 2:11-12; Titus 3:5).
If baptism was essential for salvation, why do you suppose that Jesus did not baptize anyone?
It is essential in that we are commanded to do it, but it is not essential for salvation, because we are saved by what Christ has done period. Justification by faith alone through His grace alone, and not by any work of ourselves (Acts 13:38-39; Rom.1:17; 3:31- 5:21; II Cor. 5:13-21; Gal. 2:15- 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:4-14; I John 1:9)…
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Baptism is not necessary for salvation.Gods Grace and forgiveness of sins that is why Jesus gave his life and rose again. baptism is a type of a sinner being buried and raise in his likeness. If it were necessary then the thief on the cross that Christ forgave would be unsaved, but said “you are forgiven and this day you will live with me in Heaven.
Simple as salvation by grace,paid for by the blood of Jesus who paid our debt of sins and is the only one pure enough to pay that high of a price. and he offered thru his death and life adoption of us that can never be taken away once you receive in your heart, his payment for your sins and your salvation.
I agree with Rkrejcir, read the bible in context.
It is so great that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost have all got together and offer us adoption to be their children and to follow him.
God is Great all the time!!!!!!!!
Please read Luke 23:39-43 and tell me if the man on the cross next to Jesus was ever baptized before Jesus saving him. Jesus states that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no man cometh to the Father BUT by Him ONLY! No works! Baptism is nothing magical, it is an act of Man and man only. God commands us to do it as an act of obedience towards him and everyone should be baptized, but people lose sight of the fact that it is a true, real, intimate reltionship with Jesus Christ that saves you. Nothing else. If anyone would like to shoot me with an e-mail with a question, please do at nascsplayer17@yahoo.com. Thanks.
first of all thank you all for your comments you bring up very interesting points and its very helpful…i’ve been talking with God about how to help jr. highers understand the purpose of baptism and what He told me was when you accept Jesus into your heart and confess your sins and His being the Son of God you join His Team…baptism is putting on the Jersey showing your choice and telling God that i’m serious…anyhoo that’s just how me and God have talked about it…again Thank you all for the Knowledge and Wisdom-Andrew
Rkrejcir says: “If baptism was essential for salvation, why do you suppose that Jesus did not baptize anyone?”
We definitely need to read in context and not to defend our theology but to hear what the Lord is saying. Rkrejcir,I am sure you have read John chapters 3 and 4. Please check all of the context of that chapter. Notice that Jesus did baptize and was drawing and baptizing more people than John.
Actually,He had his disciples doing the baptism on His behalf. He was training them to baptize. It was to be an important part of preaching the gospel.
John 3:22-30 and 4:1-4
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew[i] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
27To this John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ[j] but am sent ahead of him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.
John 4
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
I think we can all agree we are saved by the grace of God. It is a gift we cannot earn or deserve. We are saved by the grace of God that is received through our faith in Jesus Christ. He paid the price for the gift that is free to us. But, the gift must be received to become ours. How do we receive? Is it by asking Jesus into our heart? Eternal life is in Christ. To have the life we must have Christ.
I have not been able to find where we are told to receive Christ by praying a prayer or asking Jesus into our heart or life. I have looked and cannot find it.
We receive when we repent and are baptized. We are not saved by water. No one has said that. We are saved by the working of God “when” we are baptized.
We may never agree on that but I do hope that you will just get a concordance and read all the verses you can find on baptism. Write down what each says about the significance of baptism. Yes it is a symbol. But, the one that marks the moment we receive the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, are born again, are united with Him in his death and resurrection, when our heart is circumcised, we are clothed with Christ and are sprinkled with the blood of Christ and our sins are washed away.
If we can just read the word with a heart open to what it says.
We all really want the truth. We will always find truth in the Word, but not necessarily in our creeds and theological perspectives.
Peace and grace in the Lord Jesus Christ, our one and only Savior.
Being a Christian is not just what you say but your example . In John 17:20 Jesus tells us to believe on Him through the words of His disciples that He taught. Those disciples through word and example included baptism as a part of the salvation of Christ. If you deny any part of their words or examples for salvation you are denying Jesus. Why would Jesus not baptize? Because his salvation was not established. The thief on the cross was not saved by Jesus, he was accepted into paridise with Jesus, but even if he were saved Jesus had the right to do so. Instead of arguing whether baptism or hearing the word, or confessing Jesus is salvation, we should be including them all in the plan of salvation. Yes, mankind is now under God’s grace and yes we can’t work for God’s grace and yes God’s grace will be handed out according to our faith. My faith is in Jesus Christ the Son of God and head of His church which is the only true path to salvation. Through the writings and example of His Apostles we see that a risen savior, Jesus Christ, was raised from the dead by God the Father of all we know and was placed on the right hand of God to rule over His Kingdom until the day it is ready to be handed back to God and God’s will, will be followed by all. The example Jesus taught and showed throughy example and was taught by His Apostles was learning about God’s word, understanding we are sinners, asking for forgiveness, being baptized and walking in the newness of life. The churrch of the 1st century met together on the first day of the week to break bread in the memory of Jesus Christ and through teaching God’s Word and singing songs, and praying together to His Glory they edified and supported each other to strengthen in the faith. This was all a part of the Salvation of Jesus Christ. I guess if you are one of those no fear people we have today then you are comfortable with removing some of the plan because you have no fear. I fear not being with God so no thank you I’ll share it all with people so they can make their decissions.
Water doesn’t wash away sins. If it did, Jesus wouldn’t have come because there’s plenty of water here on earth. Water baptism is just an answer of a clear conscience toward God. Though baptism is not essential for salvation, it is a comandment from Jesus and therefore everyone ought to be baptised.
If you don’t think that a commandment is an essential part of Salvation then tell that to God when you stand before Him, not to people who are trying to find Him. One thing for sure is you will be able to test the limits of God’s grace when you tell Him His comandments or commands, or His design is not essential only problem is if His grace doesn’t go that far it’s oops and no second chance. We are in training to live in God’s will. God’s grace is His grace, which neither you or I or any man or woman, know the boundries of. I am not following Jesus Christ so that I can test those boundries. I am following Jesus Christ because He is the way to be with God. By the way baptism is not a command it is a part of the whole of the Salvation of Jesus Christ. Peter commanded the Jewish bretheren to baptize the gentiles because God had accepted them. Jesus commandaed that we love the Lord Our God with all of our heart and soul and that we love our neighbors as ourselves. I am not made perfect when I come into Christ but I am within God’s sight and eligible for His grace. When do I come into God’s sight? I am sure it is before baptism or we wouldn’t want to or know how to enter God’s salvation through Jesus Christ. Will I be saved on judgement day if I am not baptized. I don’t know all I can tell you is that it is a part of the plan of salvation as told to me through the Apostles of Jesus Christ and by their examples. Am I a better person because I am baptized into Christ. I am not better than any man living but I am more personally assured of my salvation. One last point is this, God gives the Holy Spirit out to those who learn and follow the salvatin plan as Jesus taught His disciples and as they taught us. When we make the concious decision that some parts of salvation aren’t required who are we denying? The Apostles taught through the direction of the Holy Spirit. I ask again, When we make the concious decision that some parts of salvation aren’t required who are we denying?
Are sins taken away and forgiven when a person gives his life to God? Let’s look to the Bible for the answer to that question.
The following verses are coming directly to you from the Bible and therefore, ultimately from God. If there is disagreement or argument with anything in these verses, your argument is with God the Father and Jesus the Son, not with me.
ï• Jesus said, “… the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.†(John 12:48b)
ï• Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.†(Matthew 7:21)
ï• Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.†(John 3:5)
ï• Paul writing to Christians on the topic of baptism said, “We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.†(Romans 6:4)
ï• Paul continued to write regarding baptism, “For if we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin – because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.†(Romans 6:5-7)
ï• Paul wrote more regarding baptism, “…But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.†(Romans 6:17, 18) Note: the doctrine the Roman Christians obeyed that made them “free from sin†is found in Romans 6:3-10.
ï• Jesus said, “…for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.†(John 8:24b)
ï• Jesus said, “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.†(Luke 13:3)
ï• Jesus said, “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.†(Matthew 10:32)
ï• Jesus said, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.†(Mark 16:16)
ï• Peter said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. … (Acts 2:38)
ï• Three days after his encounter with Jesus on the road Ananias told Saul (Paul), “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16
ï• Peter said, “… baptism that now saves you …†(1 Peter 3:21)
ï• Jesus said, “…but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.†(Matthew 10:22b)
I believe these verses answer your question. You may have noticed that some of the above quotes are from the King James Version and some may be direct quotes from the New International Version. This was not intentional. It just worked out that way.
The thief on the cross —
There are a couple of reasons the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized.
Reason one: The thief on the cross lived his entire life and was granted a place in Paradise under the laws of Moses, the covenant God made with Israel. Upon the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the laws of Moses passed into history. (Hebrews 7:11, 12; Hebrews 9:11-15) A new covenant came into effect when the laws of Moses were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:13-15; obviously written to Jewish people).
We do not live under the laws of Moses, so we can’t be saved the same way the thief was saved. The thief did not live in this Christian age, so he did not have to do the things we have to do to be saved.
Reason two: The thief on the cross was in the presence of Jesus in the flesh. Jesus in the flesh used His authority to forgive sins / save people on this and other occasions. For examples, two occasions that come to mind immediately are the woman at the well and the woman that touched the hem of His garment.
We do not live in the presence of Jesus in the flesh. We live in the presence of Jesus in the Spirit. We are guided by His words to us. His words (conditions) to us are not the same as His words to the thief on the cross. We can not be saved the same way the thief was saved.
Regarding Ephesians 2:8,9,
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)
To remove the word “works” in verse 9 and insert in its place the word “baptism” is a perversion of the scriptures. That is not what these verses are about.
These verses are saying that God freely grants us unmerited forgiveness. We can not earn our forgiveness with good deeds.
Very well said, Harrison. Very clear and simple. It should not be difficult for Christians to be united in our understanding of the meaning, significance and place of baptism. We can just rely on the simple, clear testimony of the New Testament writers.
Sadly, people will return to their preachers and Bible teachers who will tell them that these passages on baptism do not mean what they sound like. And people will believe them rather than the scriptures.
Isn’t it strange that according to so many trusted teachers, Christ and his apostle’s cannot say what they mean and mean what they say.
Actually, Christ and his apostles did say what they meant and meant what they said.
The Jews had the written word and still were distorted by man. They lost their covenant because of it. The reason Jesus was so upset and kicked the money changers and sacrifice sellers out of the temple was to show them that they were being guided away from God’s Word. They still didn’t listen even though they knew they were wrong. What makes man any different today under Jesus Christ. Were still going to listen to someone who can spin a good tale or do a simple majic trick. Were still going to fight within ourselves to give in to the full will of God, even at the cost of our eternal life. I make mistakes because of my flesh, but that is why Jesus died for us. We will make mistakes. But to ignore the writings and examples of the Apostles of Jesus Christ is deffiance. If I stand before God and was making a mistake because a mis translation that I believe will be covered onder Grace. If I stand before God and was deffient because some man said to be, well the scriptures are pretty clear about it. Why don’t you read the Colosians letter. It’s pretty clear as the rest of the writings, yes even Revelation if your not looking for some secret code or reading between the lines.
A previous poster wrote:
If baptism was essential for salvation, why do you suppose that Jesus did not baptize anyone?
The same poster also wrote: Justification by faith alone through His grace alone, and not by any work of ourselves (Acts 13:38-39; Rom.1:17; 3:31- 5:21; II Cor. 5:13-21; Gal. 2:15- 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:4-14; I John 1:9)…
To the poster’s point “Jesus did not baptize anyone”, Jesus had his disciples baptize people. They were baptizing more people than John the Baptist. (John 4:1,2)
To the poster’s point “Justification by faith alone through His grace alone, and not by any work of ourselves”. None of the verses cited are teaching that a person is saved by faith / belief (intellectual acknowledgment) alone. This theology is a figment of man’s imagination. This does not appear in words or theory anyplace in the Bible.
The only passage / verse in the Bible that includes (all together) the words “justified”, “faith”, and “works” is James 2:24.
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2;24, KJV)
I think the main reason we have problems with Bible study is because of exclusion. Many want to pick and choose verses they like to the exclusion of others. If we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God then we have to believe Paul in 2 Tim 3:16-17 where he says ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, and that the man of God is thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I fully agree with and believe in Eph 2:8, but not to the exclusion of James 2:24 where he uses the words noth by faith only. I fully believe in Jn 3:16 but not to the exclusion of mk 16:16. If you read on in John, I think jn 3:18-21 goes on to explain what true belief and unbelief are. Paul also says in phil 3:17 to follow in my example and note those who so walk as you have us for a pattern. The pattern through out Acts is that of water baptism as a part of salvation, so how can I believe other scriptures to the exclusion of these. Did they baptize all these people just for nothing? Paul even went out of his way in Acts 19 to baptize some again properly in the name of the Lord Jesus. These people had obviously believed but had not done it correctly. Do you want to tell Paul he was wasting his time. When do you think Paul was saved? Before Ananias or after? He obviously believed by how he responded on the road. Lord, what do you want me to DO? But for three days he was blind and fasting. Seemed to be a pretty miserable saved man.
cnkw3 & Harrison,
My heart applauds your coments. In a world where men are removing the examples of Christ and His Apostles it is refreshing when those that do follow those examples step forward. Jesus said in John 17:20 that He was also praying for those that believed in Him through the words of His Apostles. Those Apostles were given the words and examples directly from Jesus and later from the Holy Spirit. To deny any of these examples is to deny life, that Jesus died and was raised again to give us. Jesus did not start His ministry until after He was baptized and then He received the Holy Spirit and that example was supported by the Apostles. Jesus chased the money changers and sellers of sacrifices out of the temple because God’s law to Israel was for Israelites to use money and sacrifices out of their personal purse and herd. Through the years the priesthood changed it to it,s alright buy ours for sacrifice that way you don’t have to lose your personal stock. Baptism is a hard step for a person to do because it is giving away a persons, personal worldly freedom, so men decided to help people be saved without it. Same goes for other taught examples. Man has always gone for knowledge of the world, instead of life.
I grew up with the mindset to follow what Peter said in acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and then you recieve the Holy Spirit. That’s what Peter said needed to be done to be saved, and it made sense then because i didn’t know any better. But as I have Studied the scriptures in more detail over the last few years, God’s Word became clearer than it ever has to me. One teacher said that until one learns how to separate Law and Grace, the Scriptures will confuse you. And if there is anything under more conterversy than baptism, tell me. People will fight back with scriptures without realizing who it was written to and to whom it concerns. I know because i use to argue with people because i thought i knew the answers. I was wrong.
I’m not here to tell you the right way; I just want you to look at the scriptures and maybe see things you never saw before. God’s Word says in 2 Tim 2:15 to Study to show yourselves approved, but it also says something very interesting at the end of that verse. It says to “Rightly Divide the Word of Truth”. when we as students of the Word learn how to separate Law and Grace, the scriptures will continue to confuse people and discourage them from learning because it makes no sense. You first have to realize Jesus came for the jews. He came to be thier King, and they rejected Him. Isreal being God’s chosen people started way back with Abraham. The gentiles had no part of God’s economy at the time. In fact Paul says in Eph 2:11-12 That the gentile was lost and without hope. Wow! We weren’t in the picture. Read Matthew 10:5 if you don’t believe me. Jesus commanded his disciples to go ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF ISREAL! Not into the way of the gentiles. Ouch. We’re left out. But God Reached out to us through his Son because of the rejection of Him by his own people.
The message Peter preaches on Penecost is you all killed the King of the Jews. Paul preaches in his epistles that Jesus died for you, was buried, and rose again!-1Cor 15:1-4. That’s our gospel. Peter and the 11 never preached and taught that. I’m getting to the baptizing, be patient. Think about it; Abraham, David, Daniel, Jeremiah, etc…. They werent baptized, but i’m sure they are saved. Baptism came through John the Baptist preparing the way of the Lord by preaching repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Why?? Look at Exodus 19 5-6. God tells Moses that Isreal would be a kingdom of priests. Now what did the priests have to do to purify themselves before going into Holy of Holies? Wash, wash, wash! They had to be clean. Jesus was bapitized because He was a jew and he was a priest as well. He had to do that to be apart of that kingdom. Is this making any sense? I hope so.
When Peter and the 11 started preaching, they went to jew only, not gentile. When God called Peter to go to the house of Cornelius, he didn’t want to go, and the first thing he said when he went into his house he said: Act 10-28(it’s unlawful for me a jew to be in the house of a gentile). Any sign there of Peter and 11 going to the gentile. NO! As a matter of fact when he gets done there, he goes back to Jerusalem, not to the ends of the earth. Act 11-19 plainly says they went to those different cities preaching to none bet jews only. That’s what the Word says, not me. And look at what happened to the gentiles when Peter was preaching: the Holy Spirit came upon them while Peter was still Speaking. Before they were baptized??? Not suppose to happen that way, so Peter makes sure they are baptized because that was what they were taught to do; but not Paul.
Paul, plainly the apostle for the gentiles, Romans 11:13 came to preach a different message, the message of Grace. He also said he did not come to baptize, 1 Cor 1-17. But his message is FAITH + NOTHING! It’s hard for us to accept that because we want to revert back to the gospels and what Jesus preached, but remember He came for the Jew. Paul makes it simple in Romans 10:9-13, Eph 2:8-9, Eph 1:12-13, on how to be saved. Nota mention of baptism like Peter preached. It’s not there, but we try to put in there like a piece of a puzzle that doesn’t fit. Look at 1 Cor 12:13. It says by one Spirit we are ALL baptized into one body. No water there at all. And Paul makes the claim in Eph 4:5 that there is ONE BAPTISM. The only one Paul talks about is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
It all boils down to a heart thing. God knows you better than anyone and He knows where you stand with Him. I know it’s hard to believe or accept the things I have talked about, but i wanted to back everything i said up with scripture and explain the reasoning behind some of the issues we struggle to know the whole Truth about. The Body of Christ is what you are apart of if you are a Believer. We aren’t part and parcel of the meassage Peter preached. Paul was set aside by the Lord Himself to carry the Gospel of Grace to us. all we have to do is BELIEVE IT! Then if you Believe, you will desire to be like Him! Remember Peter and 11 lived under the Law and were bound by all the legalities of it. Paul says is Col: 2-14 that the Law was nailed to the Cross. We are free from the bondage of Law and grace is what we live under. How Incredible a God we serve!!
I always love Proverbs 3:5-6. We have such finite minds which are subject to our own understanding, interpretation and wisdom that is usually flawed, so I depend on the Holy Spirit, the Teacher of all Thruth to direct me. Notwitstanding, i enjoyed reading the previous comments.
To bradlc627,
Jesus was not sent to be the King of the Jews nor to keep the Jews exclusively as God’s people. He was here to bring salvation to all mankind. He was exclusive to the Jews for founding the plan of salvation because they understood who God was through their scriptures. Also God was not exclusive to the Jews Acts 10 : 1 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. As you can see here and many other places in the bible that even the Gentiles could love God.
As to Paul not baptizing the following people were Gentiles Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Acts 16:32-34 And they spake the word of the Lord unto him, with all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately. 34 And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 49:6 yea, he saith, It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Matthew 10:18 yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
Matthew 12:18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles.
Matthew 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.
Luke 2:32 A light for revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of thy people Israel.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth.
There are 60 more verses explaining that the Gentiles were now offered the same salvation as the Jews.
As for the receiving of the Holy Spirit and baptism, the people in Cornelious’s household who understood what Peter was preaching recieved a gift of the Holy Spirit to show the Jews that God was now accepting the Gentiles into His family. And what did Peter command to be done when all recognized God’s demonstration, Peter commanded that the Gentiles be baptized. Why would he baptize them if the Holy Spirit baptized them. This is also the only recorded time this happened in this manner.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
We the world now have the blessings of Abraham through Jesus Christ. We have the same salvation as the have and now we all have the same King in His Spiritual Kingdom. The curse of the law Paul is talking about is death. That was what the law was about. It defined what was deadly to us and in so defining the action of killing the law breaker was performed. The Jews had wrongly added many of their own laws to God’s . Jesus followed God’s laws to the intent of the laws and in doing so broke and was crucified under the unauthorized laws of men.
Galatians 3:13-15 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men: Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet when it hath been confirmed, no one maketh it void, or addeth thereto.
In conclusion, all mankind is under the same plan of salvation which was always God’s plan. The Apostles of Christ wrote what they taught and the examples they provided for our understanding. When I am writing about a subject I don’t always use every part of the whole of the subject. When I am talking to those who I feel are saved Christians I don’t end every sentence with and be baptized, because they have already been baptized. Paul was the same, he was writing letters to Christians who had already been baptized. He was teaching them how to remain faithful and there was a few times he even placed a curse on some that weren’t faithful. You are correct about rightly dividing the word of God so listen to it and not what some man is telling you. Jesus says in John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
Trust in the words and actions of the Apostles. They are your path to Salvation.
to joebecause,
I respect your knowledge of the scriptures and all the ones you mentioned, but apparently you don’t see the difference in Peter and Paul’s gospel. Tell me how many times you see in Peter’s teachings that he revealed a mystery to anyone he taught. NONE! Paul over and over revealed mysteries to us that God gave to him. Mysteries Peter and the other 11 knew nothing of. Paul’s message was all about the Cross, that Jesus died for us, was buried and rose from the dead. Peter and the others don’t share that message. They aren’t apart of the Body of Christ, they are part of the earthly kingdom when Christ comes to reign. They were chosen and for a time we weren’t apart of that. Only through the Cross, Do you believe in the rapture of the Body of Christ? That’s the message of grace that affects us, not the jews. And by the way, where did Peter go after he preached to Cornielius? He went right back to Jerusalem. The jews preached only to the jews, with the exception of him. You wont find it anywhere else. One day, during the tribulation, the 144,000 jews will circumvent the world and share the gospel of the kingdom, not the gospel of grace. The church age will be out of the way, and God will once again deal with the jew. That’s where many of the scriptures you mentioned will come to pass, for the gentiles left remaining during the tribulation. You aren’t going to get this kind of teaching in most Bible colleges because they are so hung up on mixing the law with Grace. separate them and these scriptures then make sense. That’s why you have to “rightly divide the word of truth”. The jews didnt believe, for the most part, and God once again let them be overtaken in 70 ad. But God’s not done with the jew and He still has something special for them. But He also has taken care of us as well, but in a different way than He dealt with them. As for the path of Salvation, WE as gentiles should follow
Paul’s teachings, and they are as plain as day that a 5th grader can understand. Romans 10: 9-13 says enough. Don’t add or take away. Leave it the way it says and you won’t be wrong. Add something to it and you are doing the scriptures a disservice. I will close with a scripture from the pen of Peter himself when he admits who we should be following. 2 Peter 3: 15-16 says ” and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written to you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things(what things? salvation!)in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest(twist), as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” Those are some powerful words that most people don’t even know are in their Bible. We can’t just pick things out to accomodate our beliefs, we need to Know the scriptures. The only way to do that is STUDY them and then things start making sense. You will NOT find any of the plan of salvation that Peter preached in Pauls writings, because we aren’t under the law. We are under Grace and Grace alone. Peter and the others who wrote the Bible in the New Testament, they wrote to the jew. Paul’s letters were written to the gentile, except for Hebrews, which was addressed to the jew. Keep those scriptures where they belong, and things will unfold the way God designed this wonderful Book!
bradlc627
Your Quote; “but apparently you don’t see the difference in Peter and Paul’s gospel. Tell me how many times you see in Peter’s teachings that he revealed a mystery to anyone he taught”.
Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth. 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Paul taught a different style because;
1. Each man while they may teach the subject the same will be different in style and verbage. The mystery was God’s salvation to mankind, Jesus Christ and the revealing of the mystery was the individual revelation that the God of Israel was the same God that created the world and all mankind and that Jesus Christ His Son had died and was risen to give all mankind the opportunity to have eternal life with God.
2. Paul who was also had Roman citizenship and could travel anywhere in the world freely, was teaching people (gentiles) that didn’t know who God really was. The Gentiles for the most part had their own God’s and myths surrounding them. Each nation when it went to war with the other fought each others god’s. He had to teach to people who were ignorant of the God that the Jews were raised with. The Jews were learned men of the scriptures but very few understood the mystery of Jesus Christ and will pay eternally for the mistake.
Your Quote “Paul over and over revealed mysteries to us that God gave to him. Mysteries Peter and the other 11 knew nothing of. Paul’s message was all about the Cross, that Jesus died for us, was buried and rose from the dead. Peter and the others don’t share that message. They aren’t apart of the Body of Christ, they are part of the earthly kingdom when Christ comes to reign”.
Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables: 12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
The teachings of Jesus Christ were the mystery and it was given to Peter and the other Apostles.
2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; for the Lord shall give thee understanding in all things. 8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, of the seed of David, according to my gospel: 9 wherein I suffer hardship unto bonds, as a malefactor; but the word of God is not bound.
Paul taught a risen savior Jesus Christ. Now you may correct me if I’m wrong, but if the mystery is Jesus Christ and He taught the mystery to the Apostles and they teach a risen savior Jesus Christ and Paul teaches the mystery of Jesus Christ and teaches a risen savior, Jesus Christ, how can you exclude the Apostles from the body of Christ? If I am understanding your quote then the only gospel was written by Paul (who does not teach any different salvation than Peter. This would also exclude for me a gentile, the Revelation of John making it null and void as a part of my gentile gospel.
Your Quote; “As for the path of Salvation, WE as gentiles should follow
Paul’s teachings, and they are as plain as day that a 5th grader can understand”.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Jesus said there is only one gospel and all are to share in it.
Your Quote; “Romans 10: 9-13 says enough. Don’t add or take away. Leave it the way it says and you won’t be wrong. Add something to it and you are doing the scriptures a disservice”.
You just took 13 books of the New Testament and all of the old testament out of the bible so I can’t accept the teachings and shouldn’t discuss your next quote as it comes from the Apostle John who is as you said not a part of the gentiles salvation.
You Quote; “One day, during the tribulation, the 144,000 jews will circumvent the world and share the gospel of the kingdom, not the gospel of grace. The church age will be out of the way, and God will once again deal with the jew”.
You Quote;”2 Peter 3: 15-16 says †and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written to you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things(what things? salvation!)in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest(twist), as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.†Those are some powerful words that most people don’t even know are in their Bible. We can’t just pick things out to accomodate our beliefs, we need to Know the scriptures. The only way to do that is STUDY them and then things start making sense. You will NOT find any of the plan of salvation that Peter preached in Pauls writings, because we aren’t under the law. We are under Grace and Grace alone. Peter and the others who wrote the Bible in the New Testament, they wrote to the jew. Paul’s letters were written to the gentile, except for Hebrews, which was addressed to the jew. Keep those scriptures where they belong, and things will unfold the way God designed this wonderful Book”!
If Peter doesn’t apply to me I can’t accept his gospel either. But I will comment on what he said. The whole context of what he said was to provide acceptance of Paul as an Apostle of Jesus Christ. The reason Paul’s words are confusing is because he is teaching (gentiles) who don’t have the Godly understanding that the Jews had in their Tora. Paul was teaching topeople who include incest, adultry, drunkeness and many other things into their self made religions. You bet Paul had to teach more about mystery because they didn’t have the basics. Talking abut mystery who was John writing to in Revelations. He was writing to the 7 churches in Asia. Do you wonder why a lot of Revelation sounds like writings from Daniel and other profets? It’s because he was teaching gentiles about he history of the faith they were coming into. It was to support and strengthen their faith. It was to give them hope. It was written in a pictorial language so all gentiles or jews could understand.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” [e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
Paul says in the verses you like to throw around, that the Jews and the Gentiles are all under the same Lord. He is talking about Jesus Christ. He quotes the Jewish scriptures to say that all who believe in him will have the same salvation. If you believe in someone or something aren’t you going to follow their instructions?
The Apostles did not write for Jews only. They wrote for the world. As for believing in Jesus Christ and being saved, Jesus says in John 17:20 that we become one with Him and God by believing the words of His Apostles. You have kicked them out of the Gentile salvation and you claim Paul taught a different gospel. Paul was baptized and Paul taught and baptized others. Paul partook of and taught communion in memory of Jesus Christ. Paul sang songs and prayed to God. If you want to only accept Paul’s writings then show mw where (you can use the whole bible if you want) the bible says clear enough for a fifth grader that;
You do not need to be baptized.
Gentiles and Jews are differnt bodies of Christ.
You do not have to partake of communion.
You do not have to share the word of God with others.
That only Paul’s writing is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
where’s the verse Jesus said there is one gospel??? Paul says in Romans 2:16 “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my(Paul’s) gospel.” Are you going to twist that around also?
Romans 11:25 says that “For I would not brethern that ye be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Isreal, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in
The Body of Christ is baptized by the Holy spirit. 1 Cor 12:13
Jews are awaiting kingdom on earth where Christ will rule on David’s throne, while our citizenship is in heaven.
I do believe in partaking of communion. 1 Cor 11: 23-27
I didn’t say we weren’t to share the Word with others.
Romans 2:16 we will be judged by Paul’s gospel. also Romans 16:25 solidifies Paul’s gospel once again.
Isreal dropped the ball once again and God, thru Paul carried out hte gospel of grace, not the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached. That gospel will be preached during the Tribulation when the church age is already been raptured! How many times did Paul refer to Abraham? Several times in his writings, and he said over and over again by Faith it was accounted to Abraham Righteousness. That’s it! Abraham believed God and he was saved. That’s the same grace the church age is under. Galations 2:7 says “but contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me(Paul), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter.” I guess you are going to tell me they are the same….not! Peter and the others were still living under the law and Paul and the Gentiles were under grace. Different set of circumstances. The jews were trying to make the gentiles like them, telling them they had to practice circumcision and follow the law, but Paul put them in their place. I know many dont like Pauls teachings, and you hear very few messages from Paul’s writings, but he is the apostle of the gentiles, and Peter and the 11 went to the jew. Do you believe in the Rapture of the Body of Christ, or do you discount it like most denominations do? Paul’s gospel is clearly that Jesus died for us, was buried, and rose from the grave. you show me once in the scriptures Peter preaching that gospel. You can’t because he doesn’t.
I know you probably are tired of hearing me go on and on about Paul. Nothing new. My pastor and I don’t see eye to eye either. He did make the comment that what you are saying and the scriptures you used “Seem to be true”, but we are still gonna teach the way we have been doing. An old dog can learn new things if he will humble himself and study it to prove it wrong. That’s all I want people to do…Study it for themselves. Don’t believe everything someone says, i don’t care if he is a preacher or whoever. Why not study to prove your right instead of saying your right when someone gives you a wealth of information that scripture could contradict each other if not kept in it’s rightful place.
What was the first order of business for the apostles before they started preaching on the day of Penecost and why was that important? Acts 1:15-26. What is significant about that?
If some one asks you what do i do to be saved, where are you going to take them. Acts 2:38 or Romans 10: 9-10. Both say your saved, but 2 different messages. Which one is right?
And if there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Eph 4:5.”, which one is right…Baptism by water or Baptism by the Holy Spirit? They aren’t the same so you can’t say both are one in the same.
For the average Christian, the things I speak of go right over their head because they don’t study the scriptures. Most are ignorant and just go by what they are taught. I want to be accountable for myself, not just accept what someone says. If you want to learn deeper, you have to study. Sometimes youhave to question the scriptures and cross refererence to see who the apply to. If you can find fault with what I say, then you will have to somehow twist the scriptures to do so.
Romans 2:16 “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my(Paul’s) gospel.
No reason to twist it around, the word my is not in the original Greek text. This was the translater filling in the sentence, but that doesn’t matter because Paul was an Apostle and Jesus told us to listen to the Apostles words and Paul was teaching people and could well have said listen to what I am telling you.
John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
The gospel means good news and the good news isthat Jesus was raised from the dead overcoming death for those who will believe in Him and follow the instructions as taught and exemplified by His Apostles. Those same Apostles taught the same good news making it the “One Gospel of Jesus Christ” taught with different styles of preaching and writing.
1 Corinthians 12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
Paul is talking about the church being one with different parts, and differnt people. And yes we are all baptized in one Spirit. The word by was the translaters choice of words, other translations say in. The original Greek word translated here means one.
You Quote; Jews are awaiting kingdom on earth where Christ will rule on David’s throne, while our citizenship is in heaven.
Yes the Jews lost their covenant but a Jew who becomes a Christian is just as saved as a Gentile if he is truly in and remains faithful to the Salvation of Jesus Christ.
You Quote; Do you believe in the Rapture of the Body of Christ, or do you discount it like most denominations do?
I believe in the events of the following two verses.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
You Quote; Paul’s gospel is clearly that Jesus died for us, was buried, and rose from the grave. you show me once in the scriptures Peter preaching that gospel. You can’t because he doesn’t.
How about two examples. Acts 2:22 “People of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Christ and the Apostles are the only people that were “baptized by the Holy Spirit”. Everyone else recieved the gift or gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Those verses in Acts 2 say nothing about Jesus dying for their sins, it says they put Him to death by nailing Him to the Cross. Once again, your not reading into it. Peter does not preach He died for you, but that you killed Him. And all the accounts of healings and so on in Acts say because you believe in the name of Jesus your healed, not if you believe Jesus died for you, your healed. Verse 43 says it for me; “everyone who believes in Him recieves forgiveness through His name.” He didnt say everyone who believes that he died for you, buried, and rose again. To the jew it was all about the NAME of Jesus, proving who He was.
I guess the Holy spirit didnt baptize Cornielius and his family. they just started speaking in toungues?? Don’t think he was an apostle. That was the start of gentiles being baptized by the Holy Spirit.
Here’s a verse Acts 5:30-31 says “the God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness of sins.” Doesn’t say He died for your sins, but that you killed Him.
And if they are all preaching the same message, why didn’t Paul just go to the other apostles and find out all he needed to know to share the same message?? Why would Jesus take him to the desert to instruct him for 3 years?
As far as the rapture and second coming, The body of Christ will meet Him in the air in 1 Cor. 15, while in Zechariah 14:4 it says His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, Just as the angel tell the apostles when they watched Jesus go up in the air, “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11. They are at the Mount of Olives there as well….interesting. I’m taking the flight out because that’s what his word says. I’m not staying behind for the tribulation. Revelation 3:10 says “Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas [a]“; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into [b] the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” [c]
20 Where are the wise? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
You Quote; What was the first order of business for the apostles before they started preaching on the day of Penecost and why was that important? Acts 1:15-26. What is significant about that?
The significants of this is that there had to be 12 Apostles taught directly by Jesus Christ To develop the foundation of Christs Church. Just as there were 12 tribes to form the foundation of Israel. We can argue all day about why 12 but what would we gain. God wanted 12 Apostles of Jesus for the foundation. While I am here in this spot I would also like to ad that the Day of Penticost was also a day for the Jews to celebrate God giving them the Tora. God picked the day of Penticost to give Christ’s Church to the world.
You Quote; If some one asks you what do i do to be saved, where are you going to take them. Acts 2:38 or Romans 10: 9-10. Both say your saved, but 2 different messages. Which one is right?
When asked how to be saved, I teach a raised savior which includes the whole bible and let them learn what they need for themselves. I cannot tell people what to do, yes sometimes when studying with others we sometimes tell them what to do or they think we are trying to tell them what to do, but God’s salvation through Jesus Christ is for each and every individual to decide upon. Peters instructions in Acts 2:38 came after he taught Jesus to Jews who were raised with the understanding of God so when they realized that Jesus was indeed the Son of God and they had supported killing Him they asked how to be saved. They knew who God was and now knew who Jesus was. The Gentiles didn’t know who God and Jesus Christ were thus the difference in style of teaching, but the same message and by example the same act to salvation.
You Quote; And if there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Eph 4:5.â€, which one is right…Baptism by water or Baptism by the Holy Spirit? They aren’t the same so you can’t say both are one in the same.
It is very simple when you read all the one’s. We to keep the unity of one body (Christ’s Church) and one Spirit (Gospel of the Church). We were called into this body and Spirit through the one hope (Living with God eternally). To live with God eternally we must believe in one Lord (Jesus Christ), one faith (the teachings of Christ will keep us with God}, one baptism (cleansing of our soul or consciounse so we don’t worry about our past sins), and one God, the Father of all (our creator and the creator of all we know and will ever know). I hope you understand that the one Spirit is the Holy Spirit and that if the Holy Spirit was baptizing us there would be no need to mention baptism, also a case in point is Acts 1:5
For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence. This is the only example I see in the bible that kind of sounds like what you say is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and these Apostles had received water baptism prior to when the Holy Spirit came. Acts 2:38 was directions from Peter for everyone to do the same as Christ and the Apostles had done and theHoly Spirit could come into them when they had cleaned their soul.
Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
You Quote; For the average Christian, the things I speak of go right over their head because they don’t study the scriptures. Most are ignorant and just go by what they are taught. I want to be accountable for myself, not just accept what someone says. If you want to learn deeper, you have to study. Sometimes youhave to question the scriptures and cross refererence to see who the apply to. If you can find fault with what I say, then you will have to somehow twist the scriptures to do so.
You are correct that to many times people will listen to another individual and not study the scriptures. You are correct that you need to be accountable for yourself. Your body is yours, your soul is yours and your fate is yours. Why don’t you let your body, soul and fate be God’s through His Word. I feel from your writing a frustration about your current situation and I believe frustration can cause some mis understandings in how we look and deal with our life. I may be wrong but I am speaking as one who encounters frustration daily and have done so for 58 years and will do so for the rest of my worldly life. My relief is God’s Word through Jesus Christ and the want to understand God’s will through the advice of the Holy Spiritwhen I read those word’s. Every once in a while and more often than I would like I bend to the advice of the world and when I realze it I ask God to forgive me and help me get back on track. He always does. The Church is not some building you meet and fellowship in. It is a goup of living and breathing temples created by God,s own hands. When these temples come together it is to glorify God, remember Jesus Christ and help those who need help. Where we get in trouble is when we start adding our individual doctorines to this group meeting or we get concerned that one person isn’t advancing quick enough into Christianity as we think they should. In your studies and fellowship with others remember that the only control you have on another person concerning salvation is their failure to hear God and be in that salvation. I’ve twisted no words, knowingly anyway and believe in the oneness of God’s plan of salvation for mankind. I exclude noone and Jesus and His Apostles (counting Paul) excluded noone. In my soul the following of their teaching and examples provides the confidince I need to make fewer worldly mistakes. If I find I am in error I will repent and try to correct the error of which act I have performed many times. My hope is two fold. I hope to be with God in Heaven and I hope you are there with me.
You Quote; And if they are all preaching the same message, why didn’t Paul just go to the other apostles and find out all he needed to know to share the same message?? Why would Jesus take him to the desert to instruct him for 3 years?
Paul did meet with some of the Apostles at various times and where did you come up with Jesus teaching Paul in the desert for 3 years?
Everyone will see Jesus coming and the Angels will gather His flock from the for corners of the world. Paul says we will change, the Angels told the Apostles Christ would return as they watched Him go, he was in the changed flesh.
You Quote; I guess the Holy spirit didnt baptize Cornielius and his family. they just started speaking in toungues?? Don’t think he was an apostle. That was the start of gentiles being baptized by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit coming upon someone is a long way from baptism which Peter commanded to be done after the event, wonder why?
You Quote; Here’s a verse Acts 5:30-31 says “the God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness of sins.†Doesn’t say He died for your sins, but that you killed Him.
What does “for to give repentance to Isreal, and forgiveness of sins.†mean to you?
Grace of God – the free and unmerited favor or beneficence of God; “God’s grace is manifested in the salvation of sinners”; “there but for the grace of God go I”
The Christian worlds definician of Grace above states that “grace is manifested (clearly apperant to the sight or understanding) in the salvation of sinners”. What this means is that a sinner must recognize they are sinning, recognize there is a way to be cleaned of those sins and take the action (work) to be cleansed (sins gone forever) and then they will be included in God’s Grace. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus was to provide the opportunity for salvation to all mankind. Jesus taught His life (how God wants us to live on this earth), death (the end to worldly sins) and resurrection (the eternal life given to those who lived as God wants us to live on this earth). To establish salvation to mankind it was necessary for Jesus to take the actions discribed and provide instructions so that all mankind who recognize His salvation can enter into it. These instructions were placed in the hands of of twelve Apostles who had spent His salvation teaching life with Him and later after salvation was established, through Apostles recognized and accepted by the original twelve, to the Gentiles. The instructions and examples for salvation were written to help provide any human being on earth the opportunity to recognize the personal actions (work) required to enter into that salvation and be included in God’s Grace. Many teach today that we cannot work to earn God’s Grace when to the contrary and action (work) must be performed by the an individual to enter that salvation and to show others the process for receiving God’s Grace. If that salvation is through Jesus Christ then the the actions (works) of Christ and His Apostles are the same actions (works) we must emulate (strive to equal). This would be done if you believe in the person (s) providing the action (work) as Jesus says in Matthew 5:16 Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. All of those actions (works) a Christian (individual human being who has accepted the teachings of Jesus Christ and taken the action to enter into His salvation} needs to exemplify are contrary mankinds fleshly desiresJohn 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. These actions (works) demonstrate and strengthen our faith in our salvation. James 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. The actions (works) taught to mankind in the New Testament of Jesus Christ are the building stones to His Church and God’s Kingdom. Every stone we deny or convert to our own definition is the weakening of the walls of Christ’s Church. Christ is the corner stone and the Apostles are the foundation. These have been set and cannot change. All have received the glory offered by God to them for the establishing of this one church. They lived the life as God wants all mankind to live so that any of mankind who accept their teachings and emulate their examples might be under the Salvation of God and cleaned (washed fleshly and spiritually when recognized by the individual and are truly repentant) of their sins His Grace. While baptism of water maybe a fleshly work it is a spiritual work as well, for the person being baptized and those of the world who are watching. Baptism is not a work to God for approval into His Grace, it is a work to individual and mankind that the individual is accepting God’s Grace and it is availible to all who will come.
Is baptism necessary for salvation? It is anexample of you cleansing (getting rid of your sins) that help you to strengthen your resolve to live as God wills through Jesus Christ and others to see your resolve. Only you can answer the question.
Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you peace and prosperity.
3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and humankind.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight. [a]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.
9 Honor the LORD with your wealth,
with the firstfruits of all your crops;
10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing,
and your vats will brim over with new wine.
11 My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline,
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in. [b]
13 Blessed are those who find wisdom,
those who gain understanding,
14 for she is more profitable than silver
and yields better returns than gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies;
nothing you desire can compare with her.
16 Long life is in her right hand;
in her left hand are riches and honor.
17 Her ways are pleasant ways,
and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her;
those who hold her fast will be blessed.
19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth’s foundations,
by understanding he set the heavens in place;
20 by his knowledge the deeps were divided,
and the clouds let drop the dew.
21 My son, do not let wisdom and understanding out of your sight,
preserve sound judgment and discretion;
22 they will be life for you,
an ornament to grace your neck.
23 Then you will go on your way in safety,
and your foot will not stumble.
24 When you lie down, you will not be afraid;
when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.
25 Have no fear of sudden disaster
or of the ruin that overtakes the wicked,
26 for the LORD will be at your side
and will keep your foot from being snared.
27 Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due,
when it is in your power to act.
28 Do not say to your neighbor,
“Come back tomorrow and I’ll give it to you”—
when you already have it with you.
29 Do not plot harm against your neighbor,
who lives trustfully near you.
30 Do not accuse anyone for no reason—
when they have done you no harm.
31 Do not envy the violent
or choose any of their ways.
32 For the LORD detests the perverse
but takes the upright into his confidence.
33 The LORD’s curse is on the house of the wicked,
but he blesses the home of the righteous.
34 He mocks proud mockers
but shows favor to the humble and oppressed.
35 The wise inherit honor,
but fools get only shame.
Sir I am not frustrated. I am confident in my faith in Jesus Christ. I follow what the word says according to what Paul teaches the gentiles. His stint in Arabia you can find in Gal 1:11-20. I just want people so study the scriptures and choose for themselves the truth. God Bless you and take care!
Paul was preaching from the revelation given to him by Jesus Christ so that when the Apostles accepted he was teaching the same gospel they would know that Jesus had given him the revalation. He wasn’t in the desert in solitude, he was preaching his revelation in towns throughout the land. I can’t God Bless you in return because you are preaching the deletion of Jesus’s Apostles and seperating the church. I can only pray that if you are truly looking to help people see the path to salvation you’ll stop seperating the apostles and God’s people. My hope is to be with God and I hope you will be too.
Only the salvation of Jesus Christ as taught and lived by His Apostles can return a person to God. You must know who God and Jesus Christ are, recognize the sins that are seperating you from God, request from God forgiveness of those sins, be baptized in the nae of God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit, as an act of submission supporting your belief to yourself and others, then live your life as God would have you live as taught by the Apostles through Jesus Christ.
There are many examples taught in the Old and New Testmaent and I believe 2 Kings 5 is a very good example.
A Gentile learns of God through an Israelite, goes to a man of God, is told how to become clean, refuses to follow the instructions at first because they seemed silly or not enough to do the jod, finallyaccepts and follows the instructions, gives his life to God, and is now accepted by God. The final lesson in 2 Kings 5 shows that one of the servants of the Man of God decided the man should pay a little more beyond what the Man of God required and lost his salvation for the action.
1 Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.
2 Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife.
3 She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”
4 Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said.
5 “By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents [b] of silver, six thousand shekels [c] of gold and ten sets of clothing.
6 The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”
7 As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”
8 When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.”
9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house.
10 Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”
11 But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy.
12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.
13 Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!”
14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.
15 Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”
16 The prophet answered, “As surely as the LORD lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.
17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD.
18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this.”
19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said. After Naaman had traveled some distance,
20 Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the LORD lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”
21 So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.
22 “Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent [d] of silver and two sets of clothing.’ ”
23 “By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi.
24 When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left.
25 When he went in and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.
26 But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money or to accept clothes—or olive groves and vineyards, or flocks and herds, or male and female slaves?
27 Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and his skin was leprous—it had become as white as snow.
@joebecause…many thanks sir…i am one with you in concept…
right now i have the same struggle of explaining to a friend about this as well…your points are clear to me and the ones im opting to follow as my life and doctrine…
…with your permission i will imitate/use your points for the friend im reaching out to…he has also gone to the belief that water baptism isn’t essential for salvation…
whoever you are sir i want you to know i long to see you to extend my personal appreciation…my hope is to see you in heaven too and so there i can thank you personally…
as for me, i will continue to baptize those people im studying the bible with who wants to decide to accept Jesus as their Lord…im not bragging or something, it’s something that i have done and will continue to do as Jesus told us to do as long as im able for the rest of my life…i did baptized fellow students during college (one was married now and stays faithful to God! yey!), i baptized my fellow countrymen who believed and accept Jesus as Lord…i want to fish for men…volunteering to work and harvest for God and that without pay…i want to continue to serve God this way as long as im able…and may He not count my many sins against me come judgment day as i remember the day i partook in the waters of baptism…the day i decided to start following Jesus…and may the Lord continue to be gracious to me and my hearers…
jamesvon
Thank you for the kind words and support of the Word of God. If we simply follow the will of God and not men we will meet someday.